Force
10 Heaters
from the
Sailnet/TOG Tayana List
www.force10.com/cozycabinheater.html
Harvey,
I read your email with great interest.
I had a Force 10 kerosene heater with pressure tank on board as well as a
kerosene stove. I am converting the heater to propane through a kit offered by
Force 10 and replacing the stove with propane.
There have been many threads on this
subject on the liveaboard list found on Sailnet. From what I have learned from
the experience of many others is that if you already have propane aboard for
the galley stove then going with a propane heater makes sense. There appears to
be much less hassle in using a propane heater just as there is much less hassle
using a propane stove Vs diesel or kerosene. However, as you know, propane if
not correctly installed with appropriate safeguards can be deadly. It seems to
me that the manufacturers of propane appliances have come a long way with
safety devices to prevent many of the accidents of the past and with careful
installation it can be a safe and reliable method to heat and to cook.
Personally, I feel it is the only way to go.
The Sailnet liveaboard list can be joined
in the usual way and is found at liveaboard-list@sailnet.net
. Also, search the liveaboard email archives to find the discussions on
propane, diesel, kerosene, heaters, stoves, etc. Hope this helps, Harvey.
John Keefe SV ODYSSEA Tayana 37 January 2001
________________________________________________________________________________
John,
Many thanks
for the very helpful comments on the heater problem. I have just about decided
to shift over to the Propane unit for the Cozy Cabin heater. We have a propane
stove/oven, so the extension to the heater might not be too bad. Do you run the
propane line from a Tee junction on the stove, or do you have a completely
separate line all the way from the storage tank? Do you use a separate solenoid
for the heater and another for the stove? I worry about running a rubber
propane hose all that distance from the propane locker to the forward bulkhead
in front of the head. What precautions did you take? Did you run it through a
protective pipe?
I just installed a Blue Systems Solenoid, but it doesn't have a sniffer
for propane gas. Do you have one? Which brand? Where did you install the
sniffer?
regards,
Harvey January 2001
________________________________________________________________________________
Harvey,
I do have a suggestion; stay with
diesel, but switch to a Sigmar or Dickinson, and don't use a pressure tank. Use
a gravity-fed tank. You may experience flare-ups when initially calibrating the
unit's valve to your fuel flow, and until you get the hang of lighting it, but
after that, you should not have any flare-ups. Having said that, the only real
safety device on these heaters is a valve float bowl overflow. Also, on the
Sigmar, it takes in air through a 3" opening on the bottom of the unit,
intended for an equal-pressure intake pipe routed through the cabin (but not
required). You can cut off the air to this intake opening and reduce or
extinguish the flame. Never have been very satisfied with either the propane or
diesel Cozy Cabin heaters...
Greg January 2001
________________________________________________________________________________
Greg,
What was the reason for your dissatisfaction
with the Cozy Cabin units? One of the
original things that was appealing was the small flue pipe hole through the
coach roof. I also thought that 6,000
BTUs should be adequate for a T-37. Problem is in the implementation.
Harvey January 2001
________________________________________________________________________________
Hello Harvey,
My reasoning was two-fold. I wasn't impressed with the design of the
diesel Cozy Cabin from a combustion viewpoint, (I didn't even consider propane
heaters, which differs from many on this list), and the size is inadequate for
a boat with the interior space of the T-37 in anything but mild weather.
Our 18,000 BTU Sigmar can do it when
the weather drops to 38f or so, but it requires lots of fan circulation. When
it has dropped below that, the heater has to be turned up quite high and extra
fans applied to keep the air moving. To be honest with you, in cold weather
locales, I'd seriously consider a forced-air heater if the budget allows. Or
both a bulkhead heater with the mica window for that fireplace effect, and
forced-air. It's only money.
Greg January 2001
________________________________________________________________________________
I
recently (in the last month) installed a Force 10 Propane heater (bulkhead
mount) which replaced a previous pressure kerosene Force 10 heater.
The previous setup required a tank or
kerosene that could be pressurized and a short run to the heater. Two
years ago, when I first bought the boat, I removed it after managing to light
the boat on fire in only one try.
The propane heater requires a run of a
propane feed hose back to the propane locker (according to ABYC, you can NOT
'Tee' two devices on the same hose inside the boat). Running the hose
turned out to be the usual pain but certainly doable.
The unit is advertised to put out 6,000 BTU
on high. I don't know if it does or not. What I do know is that you
need a fan running full time to distribute the heat along with a CO detector,
propane detector, and for safety another smoke/fire detector. The unit I
have has a built-in piezo (sp?) switch for starting and an oxygen depletion
sensor to shut off the gas automatically if the oxygen level drops in
the cabin (75% of normal, methinks).
I don't run the unit all night. I have
friends who do. They aren't dead [yet]. It creates LOTS of moisture
inside the boat...like a rain forest at times thanks to the cold weather and
the moisture created as propane burns. Ergo, I have fans running all over
the place and try to keep the locker doors open as much as possible.
I have [living] friends with Dickenson
heaters and Espar diesel fired units. The heat is dry, you only need one
source of fuel and you usually carry lots of that with you. I also like
the 'forced' heat which circulates. The cleaning is a factor.
Given my druthers, I'd rather have
diesel. Maybe next year.
Tad McDonald February 2002
________________________________________________________________________________
Just to add further fuel to the fire ...
The Espar is nice and dry. The Force 10
diesel can be hazardous. I also had a serious fire with it, until I finally
learned how to use it. I still don't trust it. It also is a pain as you end up
with soot on the headliner, regardless of how careful you try to be. Unlike the
Dickinson, it also doesn't really
put out that much heat. They claim about 6,000 BTU. I don't what that means in
comfort levels in a Tayana 37, but it takes a really long time to heat up the
interior. The Espar does a great job, no soot, no moisture, no fire hazard. .
If we find ourselves in the Northwest for
any length of time with our boat, I plan to install an Espar.
regards, Harvey
February 2002
________________________________________________________________________________
Todd,
You may well
find that the Force 10 propane stove at about $250 or so can be installed in
about 2 hours, and will not have the odor or residue that the diesel heater
has. We love ours.
Bill Truxall February 2002
________________________________________________________________________________
I
agree with Bill Truxall. The Force 10 'Shipmate' plus a 12-volt fan and you're
in business.
Bib 'Okennon' February 2002
________________________________________________________________________________
Bill,
How high above the cabin sole do you have your heater? The
base of our Force 10 Diesel is about 36-40" above the sole. That may
be too high, with the heat rising rapidly and not warming the cabin properly.
The Dickinson unit is mounted
closer to the sole and also puts out more BTU. The Espar uses forced hot air
and has the best distribution.
As far as the original thread with a
quote that the installer says it will take 16 hours - I can't imagine why it
would take a professional installer 16 hours to put in a pre-packaged Espar
unit. You can install most of the ducting yourself in a few hours. The
electrical hookup is half an hour at most. The only real labor is locating the
unit and running a line from the main diesel feed, and then installing the
exhaust. The digital controller is trivial to install. If the price is not the
primary determinant, I would go with Espar. By the way, Swan, Najad, Malo,
Sweden Yachts and other
major Swedish boatbuilders all use Espar.
Another unit worth considering is the
Mizuno or Mikumi (not sure of the exact name). Looks an awful lot like the Espar,
and made me wonder if they aren't actually the same unit. The specs look almost
identical.
For more specific information about
the Eberspacher D4 with two outlets, DIY kit from MMS, go to
www.eberspacher.com/marine1.php?section=marine. The price is listed as about 1,000 British
Pounds (about $1,450). If you shop around, you might be able to find it here in
the U.S. for
even less money.
regards, Harvey February 2002
________________________________________________________________________________
Harvey,
Our Force 10 propane
is about 25" from the sole. We have a small "end table"
next to the entry into the head/forward berth and the base of the heater sits
about 10" above the table on which I installed decorated tile for a
"hearth". It does a great job of keeping the main salon warm and a
good job of keeping the forward berth warm without fans. 'Course it's not the
arctic here in the Chesapeake! I do
think we'll have some payback time before Spring with
all this pretty nice weather.
Bill Truxall February 2002
________________________________________________________________________________
Wow. I knew it generated some water
but I had no idea it was that much.
I have a straight run to the deck
fitting from the heater. The heater is mounted about 24-30" from the
sole and the flue/chimney is about 36-40" long. The chimney is about
1" (ID)...it just fits over the exhaust fitting on the heater. Suggestions
to reduce interior moisture?
Tad
McDonald February 2002
________________________________________________________________________________
What is the diameter of the venting flue
that goes through the coach roof? I
presently have a Force 10 Cozy Cabin Diesel heater. It uses a pressurized tank,
and a Primus type of burner. It looks a lot better than it performs. It was a
bit too cozy for comfort, when it flamed out of control and practically burned
up the boat. I subsequently learned how to use it at less risk, but still don't
feel comfortable with it. I had thought of converting to the Propane version,
but the notion of adding yet another propane line into the cabin was not
appealing. The worst part of the Cozy Cabin Force 10 is that it just doesn't
put out enough heat to really warm things even during our San Diego winters
(temps in the 40's), and is near worthless when the companionway is open
to the cockpit.
In the event that we end up trucking north
to Seattle and then sailing up to Alaska,
I was considering a better heater. We were impressed with the performance and
heat output of the Espar heater on boats we used in Pacific
Northwest. Anyone have experience comparing the Espar and the
Dickinson. The Espar uses ducting, with a proper thermostat, and was really a
delight. Turn the thermostat up and in 5 minutes the cabin is warm as toast.
But price is about $2,000 (U.S.),
and installation may be complicated.
regards, Harvey August 2002
________________________________________________________________________________
My Force 10 has a separate 1 gal tank
mounted beneath a settee. Since it is below the heater, gravity feed won't
work. The tank is airtight and is pressurized using a small bicycle pump.
An electric pump would have to have a
pressure cut-off switch like your fresh-water pump, or a return system like the
engine. Both sound like a pain and a lot more to fail, but I have no personal
experience to base this upon. Can't tell
you about spills - I've never had to use the heater in the Caribbean!
:-)
Charlie s/v Kamaloha T37 #542 October 2003
________________________________________________________________________________
That's a lot of BTU for the Chesapeake.
I'm in Norfolk and I find my Force
10 Propane to be quite sufficient. Not to mention a 1"chimney hole versus
a 3''.
Okennon #151 October 2003
________________________________________________________________________________
I tried to do that in a comparison of the
Force 10 Cozy Cabin heater. It can be purchased in either Diesel of Propane
versions. I focused on this model as it
only requires a 1" hole in the deck, rather than the more common 3"
hole. The flue cap is fairly unobtrusive. (But see comment below about the flue
guard). The same flue diameter pipe is used for both the Diesel and the
Propane. They do not consume any
electrical energy (in comparison to the Espar and Webasto diesel heaters).
I bought the Diesel unit, and
don't like it. But I can try to reconstruct my experience, pro and con. The BTU
out put of the Diesel is slightly higher than that of the propane. The main
advantages of Diesel are that it is much safer to use than Propane. Propane leaks are wildly explosive. Diesel burns with a drier flame, whereas
propane tends to produce a lot of moisture in a closed cabin. Diesel fuel is
easily available.
Now for the downside:
The
burner is the same type of old fashioned burner that is found in small Primus backpacking
stoves.
The Diesel unit requires priming with alcohol and uses a pressurized 1Gallon
tank that provides the fuel supply. Filling the tank is a pain, as there is no
simple way to determine how much fuel you still have left in the tank. I put
the tank in a locker behind the dinette bench seat.
Dirt
in the fuel can plug the burner.
Failure
to adjust the control correctly can result in flames and burning diesel fuel
spurting all over the place. The heat output is OK, once you do have it
adjusted correctly. But I had a fire with our unit, with flaming diesel fuel
spurting all over the place. It taught me the value of knowing how to use your
fire extinguisher on the first try. I finally adjusted the burner, and take
great care to use lots of alcohol to fully heat the burner during the priming
operation. A major factor in my decision
was based on the mistaken idea that Propane might be hard to get in northern British
Columbia and Alaska.
I recently found out that propane is readily available in most places.
It
gives off smell of diesel.
Even
when reasonably well adjusted, it results in soot on the cabin liner.
You
simply CANNOT allow an inexperienced person to light this. Priming it when you
are in rough water is risky, as the flaming alcohol can slop out of priming cup
and onto the cabin floor.
The Propane unit on the Force 10 Cozy Cabin heater has a built in oxygen
sensor. When the oxygen level in the cabin falls too low, the unit shuts down.
It
is easy to light.
The
heat output is somewhat less than the Diesel.
I disliked the notion of running yet another
propane hose line into the cabin. You cannot tap a Tee into a propane line to
the stove. (ABYC standards, I understand.) It is considered unsafe to do so.
But a second propane appliance in the cabin raises the risk of fire/explosion.
The Diesel unit is about 30-50% more
expensive than the Propane. I wish I could tell you that it is worth it. The
only half decent news is that I can now light it reasonably safely, and that I
can buy a burner to convert from Diesel to Propane for about half the price of
a completely new unit. I still dislike the notion of adding another propane
appliance.
The 1" flue is very nice, as it
is less obtrusive, but the guard on the cover on the deck is held in place with
3 very skimpy and poorly done welds. It
came off one day when I just gently brushed against it. I have to disassemble
the whole deck fitting to have it re-welded.
The company claims that it is safe to run the heaters while sailing. I
am unhappy about the notion of running it while sailing.
My experience on other boats with
Espar heaters is far more favorable, but also has downsides. You turn up the
thermostat and the heat goes on. It
is a forced hot air system, with ductwork to deliver the heat to desired
locations. Thus the heat distribution is much better than on a single diesel
furnace such as the Dickinson or the Force 10. But the installation can be more
complicated. It does give off an odor of
burning diesel, and can get mildly nauseating.
They generate far more BTUs than the Force 10 Cozy Cabin heaters. MUCH more expensive.
i.e., ca. $2,000 vs. $300 (assuming you do your own installation).
It also depends upon where you live.
If you are in the Caribbean, you probably worry more
about chilling your beer than heating your cabin. In Southern California,
the Force 10 is adequate most of the time.
In British Columbia and Alaska
the Espar type of heater is the only way to go. Most of the boats in Seattle
and further north use Espar, as do many of the boats in Sweden.
Hope this helps you make a decision.
regards, Harvey October 2003
________________________________________________________________________________
I bought a Force 10 propane heater for my
boat but still need to install it. I saw a picture on the FTP site of one
installed on Lorna Doone. It looked like they installed it the same way I
was planning on doing it except that I thought it might be necessary to add a layer
of ceramic tile to the bulkhead to protect the wood from the heat. The owners
of Lorna Doone did not do this and there does not appear to be any sign of
damage to the wood on their boat.
Does anyone have any experience with this
heater? Is it OK to install it without an insulating layer of tile?
Any additional advice regarding this project would be appreciated.
Thanks.
John
Lewis January 2004
________________________________________________________________________________
John,
I have the Force 10 Diesel heater. I
strongly suggest that you put an insulating panel wherever the heater is
adjacent to a wood panel. A simple "standoff" mount
of a sheet of stainless steel works well.
regards, Harvey January 2004
________________________________________________________________________________
Hi
Harvey,
Hollis told me that he had put the diesel
heater on his first boat and that it was so hot he considered it dangerous. So,
I think the diesel gets a lot hotter than the propane model...
kerosene stoves certainly get a lot hotter than propane stoves...
Do you know how many BTUs your heater
puts out?
John Lewis January 2004
________________________________________________________________________________
John,
Our Force 10 propane heater is
mounted directly to the wood bulkhead, without any insulating tile. There are
little ceramic fiber or asbestos insulating washers where the mounting bracket
meets the wood. I'm not sure when or by whom it was installed.
We've only used it a few times, as it
is very fuel-hungry and tends to make the cabin very
damp, but haven't noticed any heating of the bulkhead, and there are no signs
of long-term overheating: discoloration of the wood, etc.
Frank Timmons V42 Magic Dragon Deltaville, VA January 2004
________________________________________________________________________________
John,
I have the same heater that came with
my boat. It had a piece of thin plywood behind it which was very unattractive.
I had a piece of 3/16" copper cut to the correct shape and used some
insulating spacers between the metal and the bulkhead. I am real happy with the
results. I do believe it is necessary to insulate the bulkhead from the heat of
the furnace.
Correction - I used a sheet of
insulating material, cut slightly smaller than the copper, behind the copper
sheet and small round insulating disks under the furnace's mounting feet.
Alan Jett January 2004
________________________________________________________________________________
Alan,
Back before
my boat was delivered Sailnet ran a sale on Force 10 propane heaters and I
bought one and stuck it in the garage for a year. I installed it a few
weeks ago so I could use the boat in comfort during our San
Francisco winter.
Thanks to those of you who advised me about
the pros and cons of their heater installations on their boats. Harvey
told me about the biggest problem I faced which was the flimsy chimney cap that
Force 10 provides with this unit.
It was pretty obvious from looking at the
Force 10 cap that it would not last too long on the deck of a sailboat and
Harvey verified that he kicked the protective bail (that had been spot-welded
on the cap) off of his. All Force 10 offered as a solution was to sell him
another one for 50 bucks.
My boat was delivered with an anchor rode
hawse pipe that was intended to be installed over the chain locker. I did
not need it since the lighthouse windlass had the chain route below covered in
its design. So, I had the metal shop cut the Force 10 chimney cap
and weld it into the hawse fitting. I also had them cut off the pipe that
was designed to poke through the deck.
The result is shown in photos that Harvey
just uploaded for me onto the FTP site. Here's the URL
ftp://tognews.com/Heater_Flue_Installation_JohnLewis
I have used this heater quite a bit over the
past few weekends and can report taht the chimney
draws just fine with the chimney cap down in the haws fitting. Green
water over the deck does not leak below either.
The only part of this project that remains is
to put a placard near the gas solenoid switch to remind me to take the cap off
before using the heater. I also see that OSHA has carbon monoxide
detectors on sale this weekend.
John
Lewis October 2004
________________________________________________________________________________
John,
I never liked the Force 10 chimney cap
either, and have been very happy with a low-profile Vetus stainless steel
mushroom ventilator (the current model is $65 at West Marine) I installed more
than 15 years ago. It can normally be left open without admitting rain or
spray. In heavy seas, the cap can be screwed down on its mounting flange.
Your solution appears to be equally functional.
The most common problem I find with propane
heater installations when I'm doing survey inspections is that the heater's
fuel supply line is not continuous (no joints) from the propane locker.
Unfortunately, most aftermarket installations are tee'd
into the galley stove supply line, typically somewhere in the bilge...a big
mistake.
The Force 10 Cozy Cabin heaters are well
built and throw off quite a bit of heat (especially with a rheostat-controlled
Vetus fan installed alongside the chimney just below the headliner). They're
somewhat self-defeating, however, because you need to ventilate the cabin
(leave a port open) to ensure an adequate oxygen supply. For the sake of
efficiency and safety, I prefer Force 10's direct vent heater, which has a
sealed combustion chamber. It draws combustion air from outside rather than
inside the boat. Unfortunately, it costs twice as much ($800 at West Marine) as
the cozy cabin model. Hopefully, as more sealed combustion chamber heaters come
onto the market, prices will come down.
Sue
Canfield Aeolus/T37
#-305 Annapolis,
MD October 2004
________________________________________________________________________________
Sue,
Fortunately we don’t face the same kind of
weather here in San Francisco as
you can have in the winter in Annapolis.
The little force 10 is more than enough for my boat and I leave the dorade
vents and port in the head open all the time so I think we get enough
ventilation. The force 10 has a feature that cuts off the flame if the
oxygen tension drops to 95% of normal. I also added a CO detector.
I did install the propane line as one
continuous line from the propane locker. Actually it was easier than
getting the line to the other side of the boat and tee into the stove. I
also installed a second solenoid for the heater line so both appliances are not
connected to the tank if they don’t need to be.
I spent years avoiding propane on my last
boat but when I sailed to Hawaii I decided that lighting the kerosene stove was
pretty dangerous too, so I use propane and am pretty careful about the quality
of the installation. What do you think about propane detectors? I
have been considering adding one of those too.
John
Lewis October 2004
________________________________________________________________________________
John,
I wish more of my clients would do their
homework (as you've obviously done) before installing propane appliances. I
agree, the small Force 10 heater works well in
moderate climates and for incidental use. However, the sealed combustion
chamber units are definitely the way to go if you live onboard or sail in
areas with colder temperatures.
On the typical diesel powered auxiliary
sailboat, equipped with one or more propane appliances, I'd install a propane
detector, smoke detector, and CO detector - in that order of priority.
The primary hazard with propane appliances
is a fuel leak (explosion/fire), followed by oxygen depletion (suffocation).
Galley stoves that meet ABYC standards are equipped with flame failure devices
that shut off the flow of gas to the burner if flame is not present.
However, they don't have oxygen depletion sensors. Hence the warning placard
required on all propane galley stoves, "Not to be used for comfort
heating."
With propane appliances, oxygen depletion
will kill you before carbon monoxide can. The ABYC standards require
"attended" appliances (those that are used when personnel are in the
accommodation space where the appliance is installed, and that require frequent
attention from the operator), like Force 10's cozy cabin heater, to be equipped
with an oxygen depletion sensor as well as a flame failure device. Unattended
propane appliances (those intended to function without frequent attention by an
operator, and that may cycle on and off automatically) including refrigerators,
and thermostatically controlled cabin and water heaters, are required to
have a sealed combustion chamber that eliminates the oxygen depletion hazard.
The National Fire Protection Association is
about to release an updated version of NFPA 302, Fire Protection Standard for
Pleasure & Commercial Motor Craft (1998) that will require the installation
of RV-approved smoke detectors on boats with accommodation spaces.
ABYC doesn't require the installation of
propane detectors because LPG is manufactured with an odorant to facilitate
leak detection. Unfortunately, due to chronic sinusitis, I've lost much of my
sense of smell. Consequently, a propane detector is as important to me as a gas
vapor detector is to the owner of a boat equipped with a CO-producing gasoline
generator or inboard propulsion engine. (ABYC requires a CO detection system on
all boats with enclosed accommodation spaces and a gasoline generator or
inboard propulsion engine.)
On diesel powered boats, the most likely
source of CO is an adjacent boat with a gasoline generator or inboard
propulsion engine.
Sue
Canfield Aeolus/T37
#-305 Annapolis,
MD October 2004
________________________________________________________________________________
John,
The warning placard on your Force 10 cozy
cabin heater can omit the "not to be used for comfort heating"
portion of ABYC's ventilation warning [required for propane galley stoves]
since it has a stack for ducting exhaust products to the exterior of the boat.
However, your Force 10 heater should have a warning placard with the following:
"Warning! - Open flame heating appliances consume
oxygen and produce carbon monoxide. To avoid asphyxiation, injury or death,
maintain open ventilation when using these appliances."
Per ABYC, the placard is to be posted in the
immediate vicinity of the appliance, where readily seen.
When shopping for propane or carbon monoxide
sensors, look for the UL-Marine mark: http://www.ul.com/marine/ .
Currently, there are no UL Marine approved smoke detectors, so your best bet is to use one made for the RV market.
Susan
Canfield Aeolus/T37 #-305 Annapolis, MD October
2004
________________________________________________________________________________
Susan,
I believe that the Wallas from Finland,
was specifically designed for Marine use.
We ended up with the Force 10 Diesel/Kerosene
heater. I'm not wild about it. It is prone to flaring up, leaves an odor of
burning diesel in the cabin, and probably consumes much oxygen. I mounted a
Carbon Monoxide detector a few feet away from it.
All told, I don't really like it, but was
reluctant to run yet another propane line into the cabin. The Force 10 Propane
heater does have an oxygen sensor. When the oxygen falls below a safety level
(?), the propane shuts off.
regards, Harvey October 2004
________________________________________________________________________________
There were several things that turned me off
of the hot water type heaters.
First the installation would have been a
major project requiring major cutting of woodwork in the cabin.
The fuel pump for these systems is really
noisy and, worse yet, its an intermittent noise that
would drive me nuts when trying to sleep.
The heaters make a putt-putt sort of
noise when they are operating.
The guy I had give me an estimate on installing
one made a major pitch for installing an electric heater for use at the dock to
cut down on wear and tear on the diesel heater. By the time he
finished that presentation he had talked himself out of an order.
The most attractive thing about the
circulating water type of heater was its ability to heat water for domestic
use.
The Force 10 propane heater appears to be
more than I need in SF bay. I rarely run it full blast for more than 10
or 15 minutes and usually end up turning it off within a half hour of starting
it. I don’t know what the propane usage is but don’t think its much. My last 20 lb tank lasted a year and a half
for stove use only. Even if the heater doubles my propane consumption it
will be acceptable.
I have observed no condensation associated
with its use. I have heard that condensation is a problem with most
heaters in really cold damp places where the temperature of the hull will
condense the water vapor in the breath of the people on the boat.
I do have a little electric heater for use
at the dock but don’t like tripping over it so I rarely use it.
About the only other heater I plan to
install is one that works off the boats engine. Harvey
sings the praises of that arrangement and the idea of having a heating register
at the foot rest of my inside steering station is very attractive.
John
Lewis October 2004
______________________________________________________________________________________
Hi
Sue,
Is there any way to retrofit a
"sealed" combustion chamber on older heaters, such as the Force 10
Cozy Cabin Diesel. I worry about the possibility of
Carbon Monoxide, oxygen depletion, and just the general stink and soot.
One of the units I recently read about
that sounds quite good is the Wallas 30D. It draws air for combustion from the
outside via a double walled pipe, is very efficient, uses little electricity,
and apparently is quite safe. (Also very expensive with the
frightening drop in the value of the dollar against most foreign currencies.)
regards, Harvey January 2005
______________________________________________________________________________________
Harvey,
Unfortunately, there's no conversion kit
for Force 10's Cozy Cabin diesel heater. However, their Cozy Cabin propane
heater is ABYC-compliant since it has an oxygen depletion sensor/fuel shutoff system . A comparable sensor/fuel
shutoff system has not been developed for diesel heaters. Consequently, to
be ABYC-compliant, a diesel heater must have a sealed combustion system (like
Force 10's newer Direct Vent heater).
Sue
Canfield Aeolus/T37
#-305 Annapolis,
MD January 2005
______________________________________________________________________________________
John,
Looks like a 'cool' unit
(esthetically, not thermally). I have the Force 10 diesel. In part, I may have
chosen it for the wrong reasons - I liked the fact that the flue only required
a 1" hole in the coach roof, rather than a 3" hole. The profile of
the vent on the outside was less obtrusive. I thought that a 6,000 BTU unit
should be adequate for Southern California. I didn't
think that having to prime it with alcohol was all that bad, after using
similar heaters on mountaineering trips for much of my life. I also had the
concern that I would be sailing in areas in the Pacific Northwest
where it is difficult to obtain propane. (There is some validity to that. In
almost all of places that we stopped along the way to Alaska,
and we only stopped in about 5 proper harbors in a month, the only place to get
propane was usually at some heating supply place that was usually 5-10 miles
from the docks. That was true in Ketchikan
and in Juneau, two of the larger
town in Alaska.)
I was reaaaaly wrong on a few of the
critical things. The biggest pain is having to prime the damned thing. If you
don't do it right, you can have flaming diesel fuel spitting out around the
heater. It actually started a dangerous fire that required two fire extinguishers
to put out. I finally learned to really let it prime with a lot more alcohol
than I originally thought necessary. But priming it when under sail is not very
appealing. The alcohol sloshes around and can start a fire of its own. This can
be dealt with by using an igniting paste containing either gas or alcohol. As
it turns out, even here in So California, it doesn't put out enough heat,
unless I close the companionway doors and hatch. That makes for a potentially
unhealthy environment. Your larger flue is part of having a higher BTU output,
and is probably the better tradeoff.
I also think that the unit you showed
in your photos provides better protection from the flame. The Force 10 Cozy
Cabin Diesel that I have has an exposed open combustion chamber. Scares the
hell out of me sometimes. It also requires a 1 gallon pressurized day tank.
This means that you have to use a small compressor to pressurize the tank to
about 20 lbs. That's a bit of a hassle, and I dealt with it by buying a small
tire compressor that runs on 12 Volts, though I understand that the company has
suggested that you might get by with a small pressure pump to directly pump the
diesel from a non-pressurized day tank.
I was just looking at the new Force 10
heater with an external air intake and sealed combustion unit. It has a higher
BTU output. But that only works with their propane heater, not a diesel.
In addition, it requires a 3" hole in the coach, and probably a protruding
exhaust stack.
Maybe the best solution would be to
head to the Caribbean!
regards, Harvey January 2005
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Harvey,
It was
recommended to me, by Irvin Allen of Sigmar sales, to use paraffin for the pre-heat.
He said alcohol has two poor aspects. First, it will "flare up"
when initially lighting and second it is often difficult to see if there is a
flame in the unit while burning. Upon his suggestion, I purchased a
couple bottles of paraffin/lamp oil from Walmart along with a small measuring
shot glass. 1 oz is all that is required for the Sigmar and the shot
glass gives me the right amount each time. I'm sure it's not critical,
but I wanted to develop some consistency with the pre-heat cycle. It usually
will burn 10 minutes and then the heater lights right up when the fuel is
turned on. I plan on storing the paraffin in some of the REI MSR fuel
canisters for extra safety. The oil comes in a flimsy plastic bottle.
www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=47575375&parent_category_rn=5760743&vcat=REI_SEARCH
I will also add that Irwin Allen is
one of the most knowledgeable people on the practical usage of diesel heaters
that I spoke with while doing research. He's patient with my 1 million
questions and has helped at every step of the way with a positive
attitude. To be honest, I haven't experienced this level of customer
support in a very long time! He's truly a great guy who really knows his
stuff and returns phone calls!! If anyone has questions on Sigmar diesel
heaters, he can be reached at iallen@Uniserve.com.
His phone number is listed under the sales section at www.sigmarine.com/contacts.htm.
Many of the Sigmar heaters are on backorder. The unit I was sent was a
demo model used at a trade show. It's physically perfect and I'm very
impressed with the quality which I consider first rate. It was even
shipped with protective plastic everywhere on the polished stainless surfaces.
The Sigmar heater is a gravity fed heater. The electric pump only serves to
fill the reservoir on the carburetor. Once the reservoir is filled, a
float shuts off the fuel supply to the reservoir. The gravity feed to the
heater is done via a jet similar to that of a motorcycle carburetor. The
jet is connected to the knob on the top of the carb. Very neat and simple
setup! The manual even has a section explaining how the heater works which was
very enlightening and helps me understand what is going on when the heater is
operating. It's quite a bit more complex than what I thought and I marvel
at the engineering which went into the heater design.
I haven't tried firing up the heater
while sailing, but the specs show that it will work with I
believe 15 degrees of heel. I wouldn't have any issues firing it up in
the right conditions, since the heater is completely sealed once the mica
window door is shut. I'll report back once I use the heater at anchor.
Regarding the installation, I wanted
there to be a dramatic effect when you walked down the companionway. I
think I achieved this since the flame is one of the first things seen when
coming down the ladder. Very welcoming. It also
allows visibility to the flame from just about everywhere in the main
cabin. I wanted this for safety reasons. One fact I left out is
that I tried using the polished clamps directly on the compression post and
found that the two polished stainless surfaces did not provide enough friction
to hold the heater in place. I went back to Walmart and purchased a $3
bike inner-tube and cut it in behind the clamp. It now does not budge.
Probably a lot more
than you wanted to hear. Can you tell I really like this diesel
heater? :)
John s/v Celtic Dream www.TayanaOwners.org January 2005
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John,
Sorry for the length of this response,
but because of my own experience with this matter, it prompted this detailed
commentary.
The story about the diesel heater fire
is almost the same thing that happened to me, but with less personal injury -
but more because of dumb luck than smarts on my part.
The Force 10 Cozy Cabin uses a
pressurized 1 Gallon reserve tank. The burner itself is actually
just an old fashioned Primus design, the same sort used in old Svea backpacking
stoves. The difference only being that the Svea used white gasoline, and this
uses diesel. If you don't have the cog wheel drive for the needle in the
orifice set correctly, it can open and not close properly. After making some
minor adjustment on the burner, and pressurizing the tank, I primed and lighted
the burner. It didn't quite catch right, and started spewing flaming diesel. I
tried to shut it down with the valve on the burner, but it couldn't close
completely because I had missed the exact alignment position for the cog wheel.
Flaming drops of diesel were spilling on the floor and onto a small cardboard
box sitting on the floor. At that point I grabbed a small fire extinguisher and
pulled the safety and tried to squeeze it - nothing happened. I grabbed a
second one, and same thing. I grabbed a piece of tarp and tried to
smother the flames without much luck. I picked up the fire extinguisher and
realized that I was supposed to push a trigger not pull it!! I managed to stop
the fire at that time. I also released the pressure cap on the reserve tank,
and the fuel finally stopped flowing at about the same time.
The fire extinguisher made an
incredible mess of the cabin, but the boat was intact, other that a bit of
damage to the varnish.
But there were several things that
struck me afterwards. I remember being possessed by an anger at the damned fire
that I felt was about to destroy my beloved boat. That was OK, but really
stupid. I might well have been trapped down below. A boat cabin is a really
small and enclosed place. I also hadn't trained myself to really think out the
sequence of operations necessary. I also realized that I was on the verge of a
panic response when the fire extinguishers initially didn't discharge. If the
panic and anxiety had won out, I either would have been badly injured, or I
could have lost the boat.
PRACTICE USING A FIRE EXTINGUISHER! Particularly the specific brands that you have on the boat.
In my usual compulsive way, with the safety orientation and backup mentality
you learn in Med School,
mountaineering and kayaking, I had 4 or 5 fire extinguishers within a few feet
of where it happened. But I had never thought about actually using them. I
assumed that they were the same as the type I learned to use 50 years ago. Pull
the safety, and squeeze with your fingers towards your palm. NO! This type
required that you pull the safety and then press
your thumb forward. Seemed obvious in retrospect, and why would I want to waste
a perfectly new fire extinguisher just to test myself?? Dumb
ass thing on my part. The particular brand had a nice handle that you
wrap you fingers around, and I kept squeezing that. But it was only there to
provide a stable grip on the unit, not to discharge the contents.
I tried to use a tarp to extinguish
the fire, but the continuing discharge of hot flaming diesel fuel was the big
problem. In addition, the tarp was not fireproof, so it was really lucky that
it didn't catch fire and make things worse. I should have had a "Fire
Blanket". I tried to buy one after that, but couldn't find one. Your notes
now prompt me to do so. If used in those situations where they are most
appropriate, they can be the most appropriate first response. When we used to
have alcohol stoves on boats, small fire blankets were the first line of
defense.
So, there were two major aspects of the event:
1)
Bad design of the heater combined with my having
misaligned the cog wheel when trying to figure out why it wasn't working quite
right.
2)
Failure to have done proper fire drills.
3)
As to the bad design of the heater, it reflects the
complete lack of proper safety standards in the design of that particular
heater. I don't know about other units, and I certainly recognize that many
people have used this type of heater for well over 100 years. I also should
stress that I like a nice warm cabin both at anchor, and when sailing all day.
I'm sure that the manufacturers will insist that the fault was mainly a result
of the way I used it. I don't think that excuses the poor design.
4)
But I'll save my views on the several bad design
features of open diesel heaters for another note. My only comment would be that
I think that heaters such as the Wallas or Espar are inherently safer for a number of reasons. Their drawbacks are few: Cost,
they require electrical power consumption when operating, more complex and
maintenance is tricky when things go wrong, and installation is more difficult
with fans, ductwork, etc. But they use an external air source, a sealed
combustion chamber, very little prospect of carbon monoxide in the boat, the
heater itself can be in an isolated locker reducing the possibility of getting
burned by touching the unit, no possible spray of flaming diesel fuel into the
boat, no need to go through the cautious stages of priming, and you can run
them while sailing at any angle of heel. You can have a complete novice to the
boat come aboard and safely turn it on and off.
5)
The exhaust/intake vent on the Wallas is extremely well
designed, and can be placed in a remote location (even just below the aft cap
rail) avoiding any possible entanglement in lines, avoiding possible burning
hands, etc. The only concern might be if a following sea could enter the
exhaust, but careful placement can deal with that. And the idea of just
flipping a switch and relying on a thermostat to maintain temperature is really
nice. We had an Espar on a boat that we sailed for several years in British
Columbia. In September it can be chilly in the
morning.
I could nearly reach out of our
bunk to start it going in the morning, and 10 minutes later, the cabin was
toasty warm. I could have even put a timer on it, if it had been my own boat.
When sailing on chilly days, I would let it run, and the forced hot air would
blow up into the companionway and keep us warm in the cockpit. The only
drawbacks, once installed, are the use of electricity and occasional
maintenance of the fuel injector jet.
As for propane heaters, they are even
more scary, thanks to the very substantial danger of explosion. Getting propane
is not as easy as some may think when you are in remote parts. They are
convenient and easy to light, and give off clean heat. They probably are a bit
better designed than the diesel units. But the safety concerns and open flame,
hot surface, etc., do pose problems that can't really be denied.
regards, Harvey January
2005
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