I have a V42 aft cockpit, hull 166. Water tanks are leaking very, very slightly,
less than 1/2 gal per day total. Leaks
appear to be on seams that are rusting slightly. Viewing inside through access panels shows
rusting on seams with other sections of tank in great shape.
Has anyone had the same problem and what was
solution? Remove and replace or
repair. Any insight would be very
helpful. Thanks.
Van Anderson October
2000
________________________________________________________________________
Scrub the water tank and
clean and dry. If possible wipe down the
seams with acetone, mix a quanity of marineTex and apply to all seams. Seal all water tank outlets and install a
schrader valve in the vent connection.
While the marineTex is still wet, reinstall the cleanout plate and
pressurize the tank to 3-4lbs and leave set for about 8 hrs. Then vent tank and
restore all fittings. This should force
the marineTex into the holes in the seams.
Tom Cagney October
2000
________________________________________________________________________
Van,
Rockie and I talked with Jesse Frederick
and Jim Kavle of Imagine Yachts in
Bill Truxall October
2000
________________________________________________________________________
Bill,
I had leaks in the water tank on my 37 and
used this method to repair the seams.
One thing I did not mention to Van, I used plastic corner edging that is
sold in wallpaper stores to hold the marinetex and pressed it into the corners.
It has held for several years and is worth a try.
Tom Cagney October
2000
________________________________________________________________________
One thing to keep in mind....Stainless
Steel is a strange animal. It has the
most galvanically reactive metals all mixed into one alloy, yet it doesn't rust
(too much)... One problem though, is maintaining the balance of metals during
the welding process. If you look around
at all sorts of welded stainless, you'll see more corrosion in the welds
because the welded area metallurgy was not well controlled and the weld is
actually something other than stainless.... I noticed this happening on a
welded stainless water lift on my previous boat... The welds failed, displaying
pinhole leaks... Stainless tends to corrode more in a moist, oxygen-starved
environment.... hence happening in the tank welds, which are submerged in
water.... this is one reason I won't put those pretty, tight anti chafe covers
on my shrouds, and why chainplates and lifelines fail....moist, oxygen starved
stainless..
Matt Helms October
2000
________________________________________________________________________
I talked to a guy in
1) Ceram-Kote requires a
#80 anchor surface. This would require
sandblasting to get to every nook and cranny.
Any surfaces missed in preparation would be a problem.
2) Plastisol (sp) can be
applied to clean dry surface. No sanding
or other difficult prep necessary.
I also asked him about Tom
Cagney's Marine-tex under pressure method and he agreed that would also
work.
Will meet him next week and
update when I know more. Thanks for the
comments and help.
Van Anderson October
2000
________________________________________________________________________
There is also an outfit in
Earl Potter October
2000
________________________________________________________________________
There are very common strains of molds &
mildews (especially aspergillis) that are extremely toxic and pathogenic. (
Anyway.....I KNOW they grow
prolifically in boats !!!! I don't
want to drink them, I dont want to wash my dishes with them, I dont want to
rinse my toothbrush with them, etc.
The problem occurs when you draw-down your water supply from the tank. These species grow best in the warm &
dark locations (like exactly where your tank vent is always hidden). ..... and the tank vent is OPEN to atmosphere.
Scenario: You have a minor
to occasional 'mildew' problem on your boat (everyone has one). You have no
idea where the tank 'vent' is; or, never knew you had one. .. it's hidden under
or behind some panel, .... is most probably in the dark (and with high
humidty). --- mold/mildew grows all over the hidden space. You draw-down some
water, air in-rushes to the tank, ... the mold/mildew spores are now in your
tank. Aspergillis, etc. is now growing throughout your entire water system
(it’s a matter of degree - but it IS there).
Without a 'bacteriological
aerosol blocking filter', etc., the spores from these and other organisms are
easily drawn into the vent and hence into the tank (the entry point is probably
in your boat's mildew incubator!!!!)
Once in the vent tube, they begin to actively grow down the walls of the
humid, dark tubing and eventually begin to grow on the humid dark walls of the
tanks themselves (using the metal and plastic etc. components as their nutrient
source). A cursory visual inspection will show (I never saw a boat's tank vent
without this infection) what looks like 'algae' growing on the inside of
tubing. .... and, if you find it there
in the vent, most certainly it has also infected the entire piping and tankage
system. Sometimes in grossly infected
systems you can see the "algae" (discoloration) growing on the
insides of the clear tubing that connect the various components - yum!
The easy prevention remedy
is to place a 'bacteriological aerosol retentive' filter in the line (after you
'sanitize' the whole system) to prevent aspiration of the spores into the
system during draw-down. Encapsulated teflonic (bio-retention rated) membranes
(about 50-70 mm diameter, encased in a plastic capsule --- ie.: Whatman #2101 @ $5.00 ea., etc.) are the
current retention membrane of choice.
The 'economical' alternative is to simply take a large to moderate sized
'wad' of dry sterile gauze /sterile cotton .... and liberally
"bandage" the open end of the tube with it. Keep it dry and change
every 6 months or so. Once you protect
the 'vent' you wont have these 'critters' growing down into the tank. Once an infection begins, it accelerates and
promotes the growth of other organisms until you have a fermenting 'brew' going
on in the tankage. As each of these 'critters' sucessively infect
and eventually die, they become the nutrient source for others, etc. etc. until
all you are left with is a stagnant gooey mess instead of potable water. My
claim (for the
....... now consider then
airborne bacteria, viruses, etc. etc. etc. etc. .....
The technical basis of all
the above is a fairly simplistic methodology to lessen the infection potential
of a "draw-down" (open to atmosphere) water tankage system; and, is
based on the similar standard practice as is REQUIRED in a pharmaceutical,
biological, food, or beverage plant's water system.
BTW - I know of several
folks who consistently and repeatedly developed "respiratory
problems"/asthma-like symptoms after several days on their boats... my
recommendation was a thorough "killing of the" mold (includes tankage
sanitization) and a "safe" removal process ( + tank vent ) ....
Result: no more 'respiratory problems'.
.... and just when you
thought everything was fine and dandy, some smart-ass tells you your boat's
water is probably poisoned ...... it
just never ends. :-(
regards, Rich Hampel November 2000
________________________________________________________________________
Without going into a long winded
dissertation of sanitization of onboard potable water systems, once you have a
contamination, the only surefire method is to disassemble, mechanically clean
& scrub, then shock sanitize the system to prevent reinfection. Any
discolored hose should be replaced as discoloration means that fungal, etc.
species have penetrated into the plastic!
Commercial, industrial, municipal, etc. shock sanitization is by adding
enough Clorox (there are other methods) to get up to 10 parts per million of
free chlorine, let the chlorine digest (a few days) to stun/kill the growth,
scrub, and reshock with Chlorine, drain, rinse, drain, rinse, drain, rinse,
etc. (You can’t do this if your tank is aluminum - as chlorine will react
with the aluminum). If you dont remove the "dead bodies" by
mechanical scrubbing, etc, those 'dead bodies' become a nutrient source for
subsequent infections.
The 'maintenance' dosage of
Chlorine is 1 parts per million (sufficient enough so that you can "just
barely perceive a faint chlorine smell" with your nose).
The most probable entry
point for most infection is the tank VENT which draws in spores, etc. every
time you turn of the faucet and draw down the tank. My usual (strong) recommendation after tank
cleaning and sanitization is to place a hydrophobic bacterial retentive filter
on the vent exit, or more cheaply - taping a large "wad" of dry
sterile bandage gauze over the vent and keep it dry, change yearly. Typical infections are usually molds and
mildews including Aspergillis, etc. of which some species can be toxic (Its
that black stuff that grows in the dark spaces of your boat.) If you get continual reinfections..... change
out and replace the entire vent line, etc. and add the gauze or blocking
filter.
Keeping a 1 part per
million 'maintenance' level of Chlorine (dont calculate the numbers, use your
nose) requires that you dont use a carbon packed filter in the system as the
carbon will remove the Chlorine from the WHOLE system. (Incidentally, the
carbon pack filter will become a breeding/nutrient site for other microorganisms
- I'd never ever have one on my boat) Shock sanitize with 4 oz. of Chlorox per
10 gal. Maintain with 0.4 oz. of Chlorox per 10 gal. ... + add more to be able to notice the 'very
faint smell'. (Commercially available Chlorox is a 5% solution.)
hope this helps, Rich
Hampel July
2001
________________________________________________________________________
Yes, just take a large
fist-sized 'wad', cover the end of tube and tape it in place, leaving the
maximum of exposed area possible.
Better, ... you can take absorbing cotton (loose) and make a 'sandwich'
with the gauze as a covering to hold the cotton in place. The gauzed end should be located high enough
so that it cannot become wetted by water from the tank.
Rich Hampel July
2001
________________________________________________________________________
- Where would i be able to purchase such a
filter?
Whatman-Nuclepore Corp.
(part No. #2103), PTI Advanced Filtration, Inc., Pall Corp (Part No.
DFA4001FRP), Millipore Corp. .... but
they would hit you with a hefty minimum charge over the $50.00 to $75.00 unit
cost.
Any validated bacterial
retentive filter (HIMA) made with a hyrdophobic PTFE 0,2µM pore size.
If you know someone in the
pharmaceutical, fermentaion or biotech industry, they would be a good source
for you as usually these filter manufacturing companies will not sell such a
filter for 'commercial/residential' purposes.
- Is this
carbon pack filter the same filter u are talking about in #1?
No the 'carbon filter' is
what folks usually apply just before an outlet spiggot to improve 'taste' -
typically 10 inches long X 2-3/4" dia and fit into a plastic housing. (I think they are outright dangerous on a
stagnant system such as a boat).
Rich Hampel July
2001
________________________________________________________________________
Bill,
When we first thought about tank
replacement, we considered using the SS bilge water tank as a diesel fuel
tank....but ended up deciding against it.
Though our SS water tank never leaked, it
did have some surface corrosion going on and I think it was only a matter of
time. The most prominent was towards the
aft bottom - deep bilge area. From what
I recall when I looked in the tank, it didn't look real bad, though there was
some rust showing along the welds. And since our boat is a little over 20 yrs
old (#170), I leaned away from using it as a fuel tank. What convinced me even more was what I was
finding when reading about using SS for diesel fuel; N Calders book, among
others, touches on this topic. He says
that though "SS is considered by many to be the ultimate fuel tank
material, in fact it can be some kind of fore-aft risers (at least 1/2"
tall or so) to get the tank off of the bilge sole. When I took my tank out, there was a bunch of
collected dirt/crud/mud etc under the tank.
With the risers / added air under tank - it would add better airflow and
you can periodically hose out the bilge and keep it clean under the tank....at
least this is what I plan to do, and is what I've done on boats past; usually
clean/hose out bilge at least few times a year to keep it clean and work the
pumps etc.
Dashew, in his 'Offshore Cruising
Encyclopedia' book, touches on this topic briefly. He points out that "the sulfer in diesel
fuel can combine with moisture in your tanks to create real corrosion
problems."......"SS has to be used in heavy gauges for it to last a
reasonable length of time."
There was also a real good article in
Cruising World on tanks in October 2000.
If using SS - they also talk of using 316L or 317L (L=low carbon), in 12
gauge )0.105") or thicker.....SS fuel tanks "may suffer from
corrsion, specifically crevice corrosion.
That happens when SS is robbed of its supply of oxygen and kept wet,
such as in stagnant bilgewater."
The article goes on to talk about 'weld decay' or 'carbide precipitation
"along each side of the weld if low carbon SS is used, the heat from the
welding process drives the chrome ions out of the weld, leaving strips of mild
steel along either side of the weld, which will begin to rust." It's been a while since I looked at the
inside of our SS tank -- I don't remember if ours was rusted on each side of
the weld or just rusted on the weld seems in general.
The aricle goes on to say
that....."the welded seams along 90-degree corners tend to be
brittle. Over time they can work-harden,
experience fatigue corrosion, and rack."......"SS tanks may be used
for fuel, and to be ABYC compliant, they should be cylindrical and not exceed
20 gallons. That's because big
rectangular tanks flex more and their welds are subject to more fatigue. Obviously, few SS fuel tanks are ABYC
compliant"
Well, I hope there is something in this
lengthy email that is helpful to you. I
think I have a couple other sources about tanks etc, but these were what I dug
up for now. As I mentioned, we seriously
considered using the SS tank for fuel also.
If it didn't have as much surface corrosion (though it wasn't visibly
extremely bad) we probably would have used it.
Maybe yours is in better shape than ours was. I think I recall there being an article or
two on this topic in the TogNews letter -- conversion of SS tank to fuel etc.
We are going to be doing extended offshore
cruising...hopefully for years, so (as you know) we ended up opting for new
Vinylester fiberglass fuel tanks. We
didn't want to have any question as to the condition of such a vital piece of
the boat. Maybe Rich H will throw in his
2 cents, he seems like he would be knowledgable in this area.
Good luck with your decision....and have
fun if you decide to remove the bilge/bow tanks...it's a fun job, especially
the bow tank!! Ya, right!:)
Walter SOLTARA T37
#170 August
2001
________________________________________________________________________
I thought I would forward
this as it may be of interest to all.
From: Mtdilemma@
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2001
To: MASEPOXIES
Subject: Are MAS epoxies FDA approved foodsafe? Are they impervious to
Fuel (dies..)
John:
Mas Epoxy Resins and Hardeners are
formulated using FDA approvable components.
This does not mean that our final formula has been FDA approved for
direct food contact but it is a prety safe bet that the formed polymer would be
safe for potable water storage etc. Personally, I have epoxy water tanks
and the water does not take on any funny taste etc., with exposure to the tank.
Fuels? Gas -
definitely not. Deisel is probably OK but I have to do a little testing
to confirfm this for you. I would be glad to do the work and get back to
you with the information. I usually recommend Ameron for fuel and
chemical resistant formulas as this is what they do. We are generally
considered a structural resin group.
Thanks, Tony
Forwarded by John Reynolds August
2001
________________________________________________________________________
The tank can be repaired with MarineTex. Get some plastic corner protectorsm from a
wallpaper store and cut to the desired length. Mix the marineTex and butter the
plastic angle. Press the buttered angle in the corners inside the tank and
cure. It would help if he can pressurize the tank to a few pounds while it is
curing. I have used this method and it
works well.
Tom Cagney November 2001
________________________________________________________________________
We have a 50 gallon polyethylene water tank
in the bilge (our fuel tank is under the vee berth in the bow). Fifty gallons is generally adequate for a
4-day trip with 2 guests. That allows about 3 gallons per person for food,
washing dishes, sparse shower. If there
are two of us, we make do with somewhat less, but still need at least 2 gallons
per person per day. I have yet to install a salt water pump in the galley for
washing dishes, etc. For longer trips, I plan to install spare tanks under the
berth. We also routinely store several gallons of water for emergency, in the
event that our main tank runs out, or becomes contaminated.
I had previously asked about other people's
views of using polyethylene water tanks, but received no comments. Are there
downsides to these tanks for drinking water? They should last a long time, yet
everyone seems to shift to stainless or aluminum. Polyethylene is hard to
repair, but not subject to corrosion.
regards,
________________________________________________________________________
My new water tank in the bilge is 48
gallons, down from the original 80 gallon SS tank. It measures 12" X 20" X 48". I was loathe to sacrifice 30 gallons of
tankage, but I was more loathe to not have good access to the holding tank,
bilge bottom, and under side of the engine.
I also figured that I could squeeze in an extra 30 gallon tank somewhere
below one of the berths if I really wanted the extra water.
________________________________________________________________________
We have a V-42 (hull 166) "Sunday
Morning" and last year replaced the water tanks. They occasionally made
noise when filling or drawing down but not often. Both tanks had rust
lines where visible and one leaked very slowly. A dry bilge is important
to me so we made the decision to replace after researching fixing
options. We used SS from
American Tanks in
Van Anderson September 2002
________________________________________________________________________
We just bought a V-42 (hull # 162) and have
the first of many questions to come. We've noticed that the water tanks
are "flexing" quite often when running water. It sounds like
the tanks have thin walls and as water is drawn down the sides flex. This
doesn't give us a warm fuzzy about the strength of the tanks. Has anyone
had similar problems and have a solution (other than ear plugs)?
Roger McClintock "
________________________________________________________________________
Jeff,
We have an aft cockpit V-42. Before
replacing the water tanks, I tried
everything to repair in place - JB Weld, two-part coatings, etc - nothing
worked as you need complete access to tank interior to repair correctly.
I hired American Tanks in
Van Anderson September 2002
________________________________________________________________________
We have a V-42, hull # 177.
When one of our tanks is totally full, it will occasionally
"pop" when one steps in the right place on the cabin sole until some
of the water is out. The top of the tank tends to bulge up just a bit,
placing it in direct contact with a cross member of the sole, which must deflect
just a bit when you step in just the right place, "popping" the tank
top. Once we use a couple gallons of water the popping stops.
Bill Rohde September 2002
________________________________________________________________________
Van,
Was it a big deal to get the old tanks out
and the new in? I can't see now to do this (when needed) without cutting the
timbers supporting the cabin sole.
Paul
Cassel V42 Romanza September 2002
________________________________________________________________________
We cut them and removed them in
pieces. The new tanks were 3 tanks per side and built to fit thru the
largest opening we had in the floor without having to cut any timber or do any
damage at all.
Van Anderson Sunday Morning
V-42
October 2002
________________________________________________________________________
Van,
Thanks for the info. I'm surprised that you
could fit sufficient tankage to both fit in between the floor and still be
large enough (even 3 x 2) to get that capacity.
I think the group would find it of value, and I know I would, if you
posted the design of those tanks on the ftp site. At this point, it looks like
my tanks are perfect, but one of those bothersome worries I had is if I'm wrong
and they're not.
Paul Cassel October
2002
________________________________________________________________________
Coleman,
I'm really not certain why the marine
industry does not follow the aircraft industry in treating
aluminum. The best "home treatment" of aluminum is to
wash the outside of the tank with phoshoric acid. Then treat with alodyne
and paint with a zinc chromate primer. This treatment will prevent future
corrosion. The zinc chromate will prevent corrosion even if the tank is
scratched. All the interiors of "Navy" aircraft (check at any airshow) will reveal the
"pea green" color of zinc chromate primer that was used on the
aluminum.
I looked at many Island Packets prior to
purchasing a Tayana, and I was always amazed that these boat had untreated
aluminum tanks installed.
Products
mentioned can be purchased from aircraft spruce...
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/index.php
Some
further info on alodyne and annodizing. (Annodizing is a commercial
process.)
http://www.matronics.com/rv-list/hovan/tips/AlAnDef.html
John Hovan s/v Celtic Dream November 2002
________________________________________________________________________
I
think I raised this question once before, but can't recall receiving an opinion
- What are the arguments, pro and con of using plastic tanks for either water
or for fuel? We have a thick polyethylene water tank in the bilge. It is only
about 50 gallons, and I am thinking of adding an additional 50 gallons either
under the settee or in the aft lazarette. The advantage of putting it in the
lazarette is that I might be able to install it close to the midline, thus not
affecting the balance.
I also recall sailing on a number of
boats with plastic fuel tanks. What would be the downside of replacing the iron
or corroding aluminum tanks with plastic ones?
________________________________________________________________________
I have been waiting to discuss this but now
seems like a good time. Over the holidays, we pulled our bilge drinking water
tank. It had a few holes we thought, so a winter removal and patching seemed in
order. During the process of removal, we discovered the tank had a few more
holes than we thought. Mostly over the last 10 years the boat was not well kept
and sea water, rain and/or holding tank extras were allowed to accumulate and
were not attended to regularly. The holes in the tank allowed the water to fill
the tank and remain there. IT was full of rust and black gummy bilge water.
So, I am using the tank as a model and
have decided to build a bilge, drinking water tank from glass. We considered
plastic and stainless, but the custom building of the tank seemed to be just
too expensive for us. I am also going to space the tank off of the bottom of
the bilge which is not flat. I think about one inch will allow water and stuff
to flow to the sump. I read PVC pipe was used on one tank. PVC pipe becomes
brittle and cracks over a period of a few years. After removal of the tank, I used engine
degreaser (safe for rubber hoses and fiberglass) to clean the bilge. This left
the bare fiberglass. Water has almost stopped seeping from the glass now. When
this stops, I have interlux bilge paint to put on a couple of coats.
While I was in there cleaning and noticed
the 24 year old head hoses and sump hoses were brittle, cracked and/or soft.
These are being replaced. I found the hose connections to the holding tank are
accessible partially from under the floorboards and partially from the engine
compartment. So we are doing this now. We will also be replacing/adding conduit
in the bilge and taking out the glassed in gray water tank next to the bellows
pump. We will replace the tank with a "tray" which will
have a float switch connected to the existing Par pump.
Joe Sprouse Sojourn January
2003
_______________________________________________________________________
Isophthalic polyester resin, I found,
is FDA approved. A guick cure of regular polyester is acceptable (raising the
temp of the tank to 145 degrees +/- for a couple of hours). There is also a
polyester resin that can be used in diesel tanks but not for gas tanks. I was
told the ABYC says Stainless tanks for diesel are limited to 30 gal. The ABYC
has set several standards for aluminum tanks also. Most of them are designed
for long life of the tank IE the type of aluminum, gauge and how it should be
mounted.
Joe Sprouse January
2003
________________________________________________________________________
I would try to stay away from using any type
of plastic for drinking water. The chemicals (plasticizers) eventually
leak into the water and are carcinogenic.
Plastic might be a good solution for diesel.
"Captain" Kirk January
2003
________________________________________________________________________
My experience was the pressure was enough
to scour the tank to clean steel. No degreaser needed.
Joe Sprouse Sojourn February
2003
________________________________________________________________________
John
and Mark,
Thanks for your suggestions and shared
experiences. A pressure washer has been located so we'll give it a
try next week. Did you use a degreaser of some sort or go with only the
water?
Roger McClintock "
________________________________________________________________________
Went down to the boat Saturday intending to
get some sanding done. As always, one of
the first things I do when I've been away for awhile (two weeks this time) is
to flip on the bilge pump and note how long it takes before it sucks air. It pumped and pumped and pumped and
pumped. My bilge was FULL of water.
**&^*^*
A quick inspection of thru hulls and
packing gland failed to show up any leaks and the now empty bilge didn't seem
to be filling back up.
When we bought the boat a year and a half
ago, it had a single electric bilge pump with the float switch mounted near the
top of the bilge. Since this is a ship’s function for which I feel redundancy
is necessary, I soon purchased another pump and float switch, but never got
around to installing it. The good news
is that it is now installed with the float switch as low as I could get it and
plumbed in to a new thru hull above the waterline.
The bad news is that we've developed a
serious leak (13 gal/ hour) in our fresh water tank. I'm not sure where it is yet, but at least
the tank, though large and no doubt heavy and cumbersome, is easy to
access. It's one of those that are in
the bilge in the main cabin. It even has
a lifting ring welded onto it.
The surveyor suggested that if it ever
leaked, we consider cutting the top off and just put one or more bladder tanks
into it.
Has anyone ever done this?
Dan Best
B-2/75 1977-1979 Tayana 37
#192 "Tricia Jean" June 2003
________________________________________________________________________
I don't mind share what my new aluminun
tank cost especially when you ask so nicely.
I purchased it from Florida Marine Tank and, with the exception of the somewhat
handmade nature of the inspection plates, I'm very satisfied with it. The cost was $900 which was about $125 more
than what I had quoted initially because I choose to upgrade to 3/16" as
opposed to the standard 1/8". The
tank holds approx 87 gallons and weighed about 100lbs dry. I have FMT actual drawing of the final
dimensions but I haven't uploaded it yet.
I did upload some pictures and the drawing I provided FMT for the
estimate and construction.
files at ftp://tognews.com/Tortuga_T37/NewFueltank/
John Ware June 2003
________________________________________________________________________
Aloha:
An and I installed a 39 gallon bladder-type
tank under the starboard settee. It was one of the easiest modifications I have
done to the boat! Our decision was
predicated on several factors. First,
the installed centerline tank has problems.
It is no longer in the bilge (see exchange below). Second, we are moving
on board in about a month and needed a quick solution to water on board. Third, none of the decent sized, hard plastic
water tanks available at West Marine would fit very well anywhere except back
in the bilge but we want to keep that clear to install a new tank (fuel or
water, haven't decided yet.) Fourth, we
plan to install more potable water tankage later, but have not decided on
materials or location.
During an earlier thread on this subject,
someone wrote that they planned on building a tank from polyethylene resin and
fiberglass. Any progress on that? During my little bit of research, I could not
find a source for FDA approved resin to build fiberglass water tanks. In fact, this web site: http://www.westsystem.com/ewmag/18/pdf/tanks.pdf
for West System products recommends not using fiberglass resins to build water
tanks.
I have a mig welder and have considered
grinding back and welding the bad spots in the SS water tank I pulled from the
bilge. Any comments on all of this?
Bill and An S/V
Kracker T-37
________________________________________________________________________
Took my tank out by myself. Disconnected everything and lifted one end
out of the bilge. Then stood it up on
end. Slid along the cabin floor with old
piece of rug underneath. Put some rug up
the companionway and leaned the tank towards the hatch. Since my boom is off, I attached various
lines and halyards and blocks around the boat cockpit and used the sheet
winches to gain the leverage to pull it out.
Still sitting in cockpit. Leaks from lots of pinholes on welded joints.
Thinking about grinding back and welding.
Temporarily put in a 39 gallon bladder in the port settee. Someone was making a fiberglass water
tank. Any progress or thoughts on that?
Bill and An S/V Kracker
________________________________________________________________________
A number of years ago, I used a company in
Ted Tomasek Kailani V-42 June 2003
________________________________________________________________________
Dennis, I do
not think painting the SS tanks was the thing to do. SS maintains its anti-corrison capability by
being exposed to oxygen. Cut off the
oxygen suply and SS will rust.
Joe Sircely Pegasus June 2003
________________________________________________________________________
OK group..this one should be worth a few
replies. We purchase our T-37 three years ago. The starboard water tank was
replaced at that time with a plastic tank. We have only been offshore once
(bringing it home). The rest of the time is in relatively calm waters. Our
plastic tank failed in three places on top (large cracks perpendicular to long
axis).
I am in the process of repairing rotted
wood, teak, etc. because of this failure. I would appreciate discussion on
pros/cons of plastic vs. stainless....disregarding price! Is plastic failure in 3 years normal????
Mark & Joan s/v
Querencia, T37
September 2003
________________________________________________________________________
With normal thickness construction that is
constrained, plastic failure should not be common in 3 years service. The difficulty with 'plastics' is the the
structure MUST be adequately supported and constrained to prevent flexing and
buckling, etc. The difficulty is that
such tanks should have internal baffles to prevent shock and fluid impact; most
polyethylene tanks dont have such baffles and those that do are applied with
poor engineering practices. Such tanks
are usually 'roto-molded' and don’t have internal baffles. Polyethylene is
probably the BEST material for potable water from a chemical compatibility and
cleanability viewpoint. Continual
sanitization will take its "toll" on a metal tank.
Polytanks *can* be repaired but you need to
find someone well versed in the "art of polyethylene welding" ( might
want to add baffles at the same time). A
well constructed stainless tank ... is going to be expensive, especially if you
can find an artisan/technical welder who won’t include a lot of 'weld laps' and
other intercitecies that will promote stress corrosion. Chlorination of your potable water will
attack the stainless over the long haul. With an unlimited budget, I'd opt for
Polyethylene *with baffles*.
Rich Hampel September 2003
________________________________________________________________________
Fortunately when I broke a hose barb off
one of the poly tanks on my Norsea, I did not know that I needed special skills
to weld it. So my amateur repair lasted
about 5 years until I sold the boat...
The break was my fault when I got too aggressive about removing a hose
clamp.
I was told how to fix it by Jim Jessie who
is a surveyor in the SF bay area. Jim
had run a boat yard for years. He said
to "weld" it with a soldering gun....
I cut a hole in the top of the tank with a
saber saw. The hole was the size that
could be covered by a plastic deck plate when I was finished. I cut the polyethelene disc from the hole
into a couple of thin strips and melted the plastic into the joint I had
broken. It worked like a champ.
The only innovation I had to come up with
was a way to breathe while working in the tank...The fumes and smoke produced
by the welding process were pretty bad.
After considering several ventillation options, I finally settled for
using my scuba tank and regulator for the 5 minute job.
Welding in baffles would be
a much bigger project.
John Lewis September 2003
________________________________________________________________________
Go to www.ronco-plastics.com for rotomolded,
etc. poly tanks.
Rich Hampel September 2003
________________________________________________________________________
Further investigation after getting tank
out revealed several things. The top was
cracked in three places on top. the edge that had been thermally
"bent" into a top/side corner had failed in several places, looks
like stress cracks. In researching and
talking to several boat brokers/dealers, they have stated that they would not
recommend plastic, as they have seen several cracked before. Let me know what
the "group" is thinking, I NEED INPUT to make a decision. Getting
prices locally on both.
Mark S/V
Querencia T37 September 2003
________________________________________________________________________
Marco,
It can be done. I've never done it on the
tanks in the boat, but have tested oil tanks on land (required by environmental
reg's in VA). You'd have to block off all of the connections to and from the
tank. Because of the unstayed flat surfaces, you need to use a very low testing
pressure, 1/2 psig max. Square tanks are not designed for any internal
pressure, and will distort easily or even open up like a tunafish can if you
put too much pressure on them. If your tanks are glassed in like ours are, if
you round out the tank, you'll break the tank loose from the boat. Not good.
Instead of pressure testing, I would open
up the tanks, clean them out well, and look for any pitting from the inside
(pay attention to the corners and weld seams). If you don't have rust stains
coming out from underneath, you probably are ok on external corrosion on the
bottom. I would treat the surface rust with Ospho, and repaint. I did this last
spring using Pettit "trailercoat" paint. It seems to be holding up
well.
The trick to not having your tanks corrode,
is to keep water off them on the outside and make sure that any water that gets
in is removed promptly. Keep the tanks as full as possble to avoid breathing
and condensation.
Frank Timmons
V-42 Magic Dragon
________________________________________________________________________
Well, I have a question. Recently, my wife and I purchased a T-42
CC. I know there is a holding tank
forward adjacent to the forward head.
But is there one aft for the aft head?
Any problems with the head lines going forward getting clogged? Any idea how large the forward holding tank
is?
Jon October 2004
________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Leaky fuel and water tanks - need guidance
There is a product called
"Proseal" that is used to seal aluminum airplane wings. It's sold by Aircraft Spruce. It may work on other materials besides cast
iron (I would check before buying).
It's kind of like a silicone or caulk in consistency.
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/prosealant.php
or here for the
brand name stuff...
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/appages/ps890.php
John Hovan s/v Celtic Dream October
2004
________________________________________________________________________
To replace my 100 gal water tank in the
bilge of my T37, I went with two stock Ronco-Plastics stock tanks, #B157 and
#B347. These are 'rectangular' and do not use all of the available '
trapezoidal' space in the bilge area. I am going from 100 gal to 70 gal,
but I am installing a water maker and hope that I will be okay. I am
hoping to use the extra bilge space to store some heavy stuff, like extra anchor
chain.
I went with Ronco, http://www.Ronco-Plastics.com ,
because all of their tanks are roto-molded, which gives a strong tank.
Ronco is highly recommended, and their stock tanks are inexpensive. You
can get a custom tank made, but it will cost much more.
A previous member of this list, Dan Best,
replaced his water tank with two custom made tanks from Duraweld,
http://www.dura-weld.com/ . I think he ended up with two 50 gal
tanks. As the name implies, the custom tanks made by Duraweld are
'welded'. I believe that the seams can eventually crack, at least, that
is the scuttle-butt. I spoke with them and they said that they could find
the drawings for Dan Best's tanks. I almost went with them.
Another reason that I went with Ronco is
that they are in
Dan Baker Che Bella November 2004
________________________________________________________________________
Dan,
T-37 leaky tanks - looking for
replacement ideas. Did you find a stock tank to replace your 100-gallon
leaky water tank?
Kendall Bailey
________________________________________________________________________
Subject: [tayana] Leaky water tanks - need guidance
The
green wire connection to the
stainless water tank below the cabin
sole has come loose, causing tank to drain into bilge. Looks to be either a ground wire of perhaps
remnants of an old sensor. Hole is right
at bottom of tank, aft end with green wire hanging out. Looks like there is one more
"probe" about 1 inch away for the hole. Found green wire with screw attachment and
black rubber cover connected. Tank
inside is clean and shiny, no rust. Have others had this problem? Is there a way to plug the hole from the
outside? Again - need your guidance on
what works.
Thanks, Kendall Bailey
Dana Pont, CA November 2004
________________________________________________________________________
Regis,
You listed many good tips. When I started
cleaning the interior of my 25+ year Tayana I took a hose right in with me and
cleaned the inside of the hull and was amazed at all the junk, dirt, and debris
that ended up in the bilge. I scrubbed every inch that I could reach with a
hospital grade disinfectant cleaner that works on gram - and gram + bacteria,
mold, etc. (Johnson Virex 256) and it helped
out tremendously.
Subsequently, I removed the diesel fuel
tank from the bow and the fresh water tank in the bilge and still found saw
dust, old screws, bits of wood, coins, etc. that were lodged underneath. I have
literally touched every inch of the boat in cleaning it.
I removed all the old hoses, etc., and they
reaked of odor. I agree that the biggest contributor to odors is old fuel and
sanitation hoses. Once old hoses are replaced and the interior is really
cleaned and kept clean on a regular basis, odors should be minimal.
John Keefe CT37
No.63 ODYSSEA
________________________________________________________________________
Permeation of liquids through polymers (and
some metals) is well known fact in the chemical process and biopharm
industries. What 'drives' the flow is
simple chemical equilibrium and vapor pressure. The structure of a polymer on a
sub-microscopic level has intersticies or 'holes' and these are all connected
to a statistical degree. The vapor
permeates through the 'holes' until the equilibrium is reached when the vapor
'condenses' into a liquid. This
phenomenon progressively continues through the polymer until the fluid/vapor is
noticed on the opposite surface of that which is in contact with the liquid fluid.
The higher the vapor pressure, the greater the 'flow'. Of course this a is a very slow process
timewise and is dependent on the size of the molecules migrating through the
molecular sized 'holes' in the polymer ... and the rates of 'transmission' continue
until equilibrium (steady state) are reached and the polymer is internally
saturated with the fluid that it was thought to contain. Once saturation
completes all the way through the thickness of the polymer, you can detect the
fluid molecules that were supposed to be contained on the the exposed side -
just be patient.
This is just simple osmosis on the
molecular level that is 'driven' by vapor pressure. Its probably the transport mechanism that
causes osmotic blistering in fiberglass boats ... and it doesnt matter if the
water comes from inside or outside the boat.
As regards anchor lockers, bilges and other
smelly places on a boat what you are probably smelling is the decomposition of
microorganisms either picked up by the anchor rode or were growing on surfaces
when supplied by high water vapor/'humidity'.
Bleaches, etc. only kill such organisms and leave the cellular debris to
rot and stink and become the nutrient sources for successively arriving
microorganisms. For smell removal, periodically
use highly caustic solutions (dilute lye solutions, detergents that contain
sodium silicates or acidic solutions that contain "peracetic acid")
to dissolve the cellular debris. There
is personal danger awaiting from some of the species of molds and mildews that
grow on the hidden humid dark and warm surfaces inside a boat: including the
'black mildews' that are extremely toxic to skin and your respiratory
system. As regards molds and mildews,
you WILL also find them growing INSIDE the potable water tankage .... its the
black staining inside the plastic hose, tankage, etc. How these molds and mildews got inside the
potable water system was by the unprotected/unfiltered tank atmospheric vent.
Rich Hampel November 2004
________________________________________________________________________
I'd leave the rust in the tank - as
is. Any acetic chemical you put in will
perhaps further weaken the already corroding tank, especially any welded areas. Rust won’t hurt you. You can put a cheapy
particulate filter just downstream of the pump to remove visible
particulate. Suggest you go to Home
Depot, purchase a simple 10" polypropylene "Ametek type"
(arranged for flat gasketed 10" long X 2.75" diameter filter
cartridges) for about $40.00 and a cheapy 10µM 'particulate' filter made of all
polypropylene. A 10" filter
typically hold about 50 to 100 grams of crud (a lot of crud) before you need to
change.
Rich Hampel November 2004
________________________________________________________________________
John,
The active ingredient in Barkeeper's Friend
is oxalic acid. That's a real no-no for use near potable water if you want to
have functioning kidneys afterwards. It's the equivalent of drinking radiator
fluid. It's great for exterior stuff; just be sure to wear nitrile gloves when
using it, as oxalic acid is absorbed through the skin as well as mucous
membranes; if you detect an odor of aerosolized material, wear a respirator.
I suppose anything he uses would be harmful
to health. I'd insist that the tanks be removed from the boat when treating and
rinsed, rinsed, rinsed, so there is no possibility whatsoever of any of this
stuff finding its way into the plastic plumbing where you will never ever be
able to remove all traces. It's not
something I'd want to do, personally, without the consultation of a chemist.
From what I've seen reading ingredient
panels all "metal polishing" compounds contain either oxalic or
phosphoric acids, with the occasional additional muriatic acid thrown in. I'm
sure Rich has much more knowledge of this than I do. They are all equivalent in
function, but vary greatly in price. IME it's not uncommon to look at someone's
cleaning box on a boat and see a dozen different brand names of stuff which are
functionally identical. I remember
reading a great article, I think it may have been in "Gentlemen's Guide to
the
Note that the expensive "two
part" teak brighteners are simply oxalic acid followed by bleach (never
mix them together!)
Charlie Freeman November 2004
______________________________________________________________________________________
Subject: RE: [tayana] Water
Tank Rust Clean Out
Anyone have any good ideas of what to use and
how to clean out a rusty bottom on a SS water tank? This appears to be only,
ha, only, in the bottom. Also what's a
good way to clean the tops of the SS tanks as they are somewhat rusty too. Thanks for any help.
Walter Alexander TOUCAN V-42cc November 2004
________________________________________________________________________
Walter,
I have been thinking about your question
and the only thing I can think of, and I'm really not sure if this is a good
idea in a potable water tank, is to use "Naval Jelly" which you can
get at Home Depot, etc. I know it takes
off rust.... but......maybe not such a good thing to do. Sorry, I can't be much more help to you but I
have no background in metals or chemical tank cleaning, etc. I think you have
stumped us all on this one.
Regards, John Keefe CT3 7 No.63 ODYSSEA November 2004
________________________________________________________________________
I believe Barkeepers friend, found at most
local grocery stores, would be the best product to use. Thoroughly rinse afterwards.
John Hovan s/v Celtic Dream November 2004
________________________________________________________________________
My water tank vents through a U-shaped
stainless tube into my head sink. Maybe
that was where yours went at some point.
Dan
Baker Che Bella February
2005
________________________________________________________________________
VERY BAD idea – this can be a source of retrograde bacterial infection of the tankage. Just think of all the Staphlococcus aureus,
E. Coli and other 'nasty' micro-organisms in the head and inches away from the
vent at the sink! Why would you want
these growing in your tankage? To
assure a clean tank system, the vent should terminate in a bacterial blocking
device to prevent aspiration of molds, mildews, bacterial, el-forms, and other
lifeforms that make you sick, give you fever ...... give you the 'trots'.
All you have to do is wrap a fist-sized wad
of bandage cotton over the vent end, keep it dry, and change once yearly. The most common toxicant found in boat water
systems are stochybatris and aspergillis molds/mildews and they can be VERY
toxic ..... its the foul dark-green shit that grows inside all the hoses,
tanks, etc. If you're sensitive, the
stuff can kill you.
Rich Hampel February
2005
________________________________________________________________________
Hi Andy,
Are you SURE you have Aluminum tanks????
much of the low grade stainless used on boat tanks ‘looks’ like aluminum. What
is confusing is that many use stainless with a sandblasted surface .... very
confusing.
If you do have aluminum there are
several (time consuming) possibilities .... chiefly the usage of hydrogen
peroxide but your going to need LOTS of hydrogen peroxide. The concentration needed with peroxide
(30,000 parts per million) will either involve very concentrated (very
dangerous) OR a huge amount of the ‘drugstore’ stuff. I suggest a thorough
mechanical scrub followed by several good ‘blasts’ with a hose to knock off the
biofilm, then rinse the tank. By rinsing (after scrubbing), I mean using many
cycles of hitting the walls with a ‘little bit’ of water from a hose. then
completely draining each time; I dont mean completely filling and emptying once
or twice. THEN, when youre quite sure the biofilm is gone, then add a Gallon or
two of drugstore peroxide to a few inches of water in the tank bottom, pump
through until the mix hits the spiggots, then shut down and let soak (4 hours
minimum with peroxide).
Just as with ANY sanitization you
MUST mechanically remove the 'bio-film'. To
destroy an established biofilm without scrubbing, repetitive sanitizing
cycles are usually required. The initial chemical exposure (Chlorine, peroxide,
etc.) may/usually only kill the top layer of biofilm. The disinfectant will
also destroy the gel-like sugars (glycocalyx) or slime which is the “glue” that
holds biofilm bacteria together and to the pipe wall. This weakens the biofilm
structure. For that reason, it is a good idea to follow any chemical
disinfectant exposure with a high-flow flush. Fresh disinfectant is then
reintroduced to the tankage/piping to kill the next bacterial layer. If the
tank/piping has no access for mechanical cleaning, then this sanitization/flush
cycle may need to be repeated several times on consecutive days until the
accumulated biofilm has been removed. For a well-established biofilm, 3-10
cycles may be needed. If you knock down the biofilm with mechanical scrubbing,
then you probably only need a single shock sanitization to accomplish a low
residual microorganism count. Once the biofilm is gone, the use of low levels
of disinfectants – chlorine (not with an aluminum tank) or peroxide, etc. will
keep the ‘fauna and flora’ down to fairly acceptable 'hygienic/potable' levels.
I am simply AMAZED at the gross
misinformation written and published about 'sanitization' of 'boat water
systems'. I can only assume that these 'authors' simply misread or misperceived
sanitary specifications/recommendations and never really ever actually did a
bio-assay/culture after they were finished to validate their 'cookbook'
recommendations. You CANNOT expect to have a sanitized system by simply dumping
in a certain amount of certain chemicals, waiting a prescribed time .... and
then assume that evertything is 'hunkey-dorey'.
THE MOST IMPORTANT ITEM in sanitization is REMOVAL OF ****BIOFILM****.
The simple and 'most elegant' test is to rub your fingers on the tank walls or
the inside diameter of the hose .... if SLIPPERY then you have a biofilm. Once
the film is GONE then you can sanitize.
Nothing beats scrubbing with soap and water!!!!!
Rich Hampel October
2005
________________________________________________________________________
Hans Sasse in the
Regards, Rich Hampel October
2005
________________________________________________________________________
John,
Many thanks for the hint. I may just do a
'test drilling' down into the 'membrane' that surrounds the ballast - just for
a 'look/see'. I didn’t perceive any
off-gassing permeating through the wall; but, now that you mention it, I'll put
a Saran 'patch' on the wall, etc. for a bit of time, then take a 'whiff'.
For my aluminum tank, I plan to just cut
the top off and lay-in an FDA listed for potable water epoxy fiberglass liner,
coat the exterior bottom to prevent/retard corrosion, seal the top and put it
back in. With the price of stainless
these days, it would probably be cheaper to buy a new boat than a new stainless
tank. I'm still looking for the material that Walter Bruj (Soltara) selected to
line his new tanks - polyethylene sheet prefaced with fiberglass as that would
yield the least amount of 'leachables' into the potable water.
The Garboard drain is
'doable' and probably a great benefit. I'd go with Monel metal for the plug. It’s going to be difficult to drill close and
parallel to the floor of the bilge bottom and be close to the bottom with a
hand drill. I envision you in there with a hand-cranked push drill to get the
correct pilot hole height from the bottom floor, then drilling back in from the
outside with a power tool. Just be sure
that you don’t break into the FRG membrane that surrounds the ballast ... at
least keep the hole dry until you inject epoxy if you do penetrate as you don’t
want ferric rusting to begin in the ballast cavity as that will be the absolute
'beginning of the end' of your boat.
best regards, Rich Hampel November 2005
________________________________________________________________________
Rich,
I split PVC pipe in half lengthwise and
glassed the strips to the bottom of the bilge to support the new tank I had
built. The tank is an inch shorter in height to compensate for the half-height
of the PVC pipe. If I get water in the bilge forward, it should have no trouble
running aft beneath the tank. The tank shouldn't even get wet unless the boat
takes on a lot of water. Once the bilge is pumped dry, air will be able to
circulate under the tank again. I'm currently replacing all the piping on my
boat and have been finding lots of construction debris (in a 24-year-old boat)
outboard in the upper bilge areas beneath the galley, saloon and chart table.
Sue Canfield Aeolus T-37 #305 November 2005
________________________________________________________________________
Our T-37 had been refitted with
aluminum water tanks: 2 in the bow, 2 in the bilge. They had the
aft bilge tank repaired about 6 years ago when it developed a pinhole leak in the
bottom. It evidently had corroded (??) after being in contact with the
salt water in the bilge. As a remedy, I placed deck blocks under the tank
to allow water/air flow around it.
Last weekend, I pulled the tank, and
it looks like it's getting pitted again. Other than replacing the tank
with a plastic one (lots of $$), is there a suitable coating that could be
applied to the outside of the tank to protect it from salt water and other
stuff in the bilge? Would a coating like "rhino-liner"
work? Thanks for your input.
Steve Abel SV Victoria Rose Tayana 37 #384 February
2006
________________________________________________________________________
Subject: Re: Protecting an
aluminum water tank
Coatings are great .... until you get
a pinhole in the surface and then the corrosion is usually 'much worse' than
without such a coating. Aluminum tanks
need anodes --- typically magnesium anodes, just like your hot water
heater!!!!!
BTW - The main problem with aluminum
tankage is that chlorine sanitization is contraindicated because of the
chlorine/halide attack on the aluminum. For aluminum vs. sanitization you need
lots of hydrogen peroxide to do the sanitization maintenance job.
Stainless will cost a minor fortune but
will better withstand chlorine sanitization ..... still needs an anode -
IMHO. Probably the best/cheapest is what
was done on Soltara (Walter Bruj) with a polyethylene lined fiberglass tank
.... can use caustics to clean and won’t be a problem with corrosion. You just need
to use foo-grade resins (and be able to find the special 'resin wettable'
polyethylene that his tankmaker used .... and which apparently no one else in
the world has).
Rich Hampel T-37 #423 "
________________________________________________________________________
Per American Boat & Yacht Council
(ABYC) standard H-23, aluminum is not an acceptable material for tanks in
contact with potable water. Whoever installed your boat's aluminum tanks was
obviously ignorant of marine industry standards. I wouldn't advise spending
good money in an effort to extend the service life of aluminum water tanks.
Instead, buy new ones made of stainless steel or plastic.
Sue Canfield Aeolus
T37 #305 February 2006
________________________________________________________________________
You can pay now or pay later when you sell
the boat. A good pre-purchase surveyor will note the aluminum tanks (and their
condition) and likely adjust his/her opinion of the boat's fair market value
accordingly. Consequently, the
prospective buyer may lower his/her offer or, perhaps, buy a different boat.
Rich, when did Ta Yang install aluminum tanks? I haven't seen any on the
Tayanas I've surveyed.
Sue Canfield
Aeolus T37 #305 February
2006
________________________________________________________________________
Bert at www.seafabtanks.com is
building us a new custom 100-gallon bilge tank now. We shoud pick it up
sometime next month, I'll let you know how it works out.
Jim Grant T-37 # 370 February
2006
________________________________________________________________________
Jim,
How does the 100-gallon tank fit into the
bilge. I'd consider this option instead of the 2 smaller tanks currently
in the bilge. The two smaller tanks are placed in between the 2 removable
"floorboards" and the teak grate (at the bottom of the
companionway). The tanks extend from just in front of the engine to about
18" in behind the compression post. Would the retro-fit of a
100-gallon tank require a bit of sole removal and woodworking?
Steve Abel SV Victoria Rose Tayana 37 #384 February 2006
________________________________________________________________________
Bert at Sea Fab seems very nice and
I'm looking forward to getting my tank. With reference to how it fits in
the space, I'd have to see your sole. I
think mine is pretty standard. You open the two first floor boards and there's
the tank. My wife has all the dimensions. If mine fits after Bert builds it, I'm sure
everyone could use the drawings we sent him.
Jim Grant February
2006
________________________________________________________________________
I recently read through the rules for
the Bermuda Ocean Race (scheduled to depart on June 9 from
"3.21: Permanently installed water tank(s) dividing water into two
compartments with permanently installed water delivery system and a separate
Emergency water container for 2.4
(Rules are based on the US Sailing Racing Rules of Sailing and the ISAF
Offshore Special Regulations Governing Offshore Racing for Monohulls.)
I was reminded of my discomfort when
I headed offshore with four souls (plus myself) and 100 gallons of water in a
SINGLE tank and how I had wished that I had a different tankage
arrangement. I mention this as I've read
the recent emails with a jaundiced eye. I strongly believe that multiple
water tanks (ON CENTERLINE) are better than a single tank. Furthermore, I
would STRONGLY suggest that those of you with a multi tank option should select
that option and those of you that already have multiple tanks should retain
those tanks.
I was forced to carry case upon case of bottled water (more weight in the bow...the
"garage") as a means to mitigate the potential risk of fouled water
in my ONLY tank.
I have found the presence of a single water tank in an ocean going yacht of
this stature to be as ludicrous as the fuel tank in the bow.
Tad McDonald February
2006
________________________________________________________________________
I was confronted with a variant system on
our boat when we bought it. The old water tank had been removed and a baffled
polyethylene tank installed. But it was only 50 gallons, barely enough for a
casual 4-day weekend with four on board.
The choice was to either remove it and replace with a 100 gallon, or add
supplementary saddle tanks. I found a
Nauta flexible 37 gallon tank, and plan to install that under the port settee.
My concern is about balance, since that puts about 300 pounds on the port side.
We still have our 90 gallon fuel tank in the bow, and depending upon plans for
future travel, may remove it and put the fuel tank in the bilge by converting
the 50- gallon polyethylene water tank to a fuel tank, and adding a second
saddle tank for water (possibly a 45-50 gallon) under the starboard settee.
This depends upon the wisdom of using a poly tank for fuel. Though this reduces the total fuel volume to
50 gallons, I could then add a small supplementary fuel tank for longer
journeys. Seems like a juggling act, but it means that I will have two separate
water and two separate fuel tanks, which reduces the problems of contamination.
regards,
________________________________________________________________________
Harvey and all,
Considering the limited options on a T37, I
think Traveler has a pretty senisble arrangement of tankage. We carry 150
gallons of water in two (factory original) 75-gallon SS tanks, one each located
under the port and starboard settees in the main cabin. Our 90-gallon fuel tank
is, alas, in the bilge (but for that matter so is the wiring at the base of the
keel-stepped mast). Potential exposusre to salt water aside, it is low and on
the centerline between the galley and nav station. So, additional weight ~
1200lbs. for full water tanks is centered longitudinally; fuel weight is low as
it'll go, and we have no iron fuel tank in the bow, so hobbyhorse special
effects are minimized.
I agree with Tad - the old saw about
putting all one's eggs in a single basket is particularly true when
considering the storage options for potable water offshore ------ watermakers,
et. al.,not withstanding.
Sandra Blake T-37 Traveler
________________________________________________________________________
Ta Yang has never installed aluminum
water tanks. Always SS.
Neil Wineberg Importer
for Tayana Yachts & X-Yachts February
2006
________________________________________________________________________
Then they outsourced the production
of my boat as the water tank is Aluminum ... as I had to cut the 2 floor beams
to remove it (no the beams were not 'keyed').
I also visited 2 T-37’s of the same vintage as my present boat in the
Rich Hampel February
2006
________________________________________________________________________
Rich,
I guess Gibson Yacht in
Neil Wineberg February 2006
________________________________________________________________________
It just plain doesn’t make sense to
use aluminum versus water ... too many problems. Although, with the skyrocketing world prices
of stainless and basic polymers, aluminum becomes attractive ... even knowing
that it is ultimately 'consumable/disposable'.
My boat definitely has an aluminum
OEM installed tank and made from a cheap grade of aluminum.
Rich Hampel February
2006
________________________________________________________________________
Jim,
I made contact with Bert at SeafabtankS.com and he was
very helpfull. After much sucking of teeth, he came up with a price of $1431
per tank, with a 10% discount if I replace the 2 (port & starboard) at the
same time. I think that this price, albeit steep, is representative of
replacing the tanks with stainless and it should be a once only job (althouth
even the Taiwanese SS lasted 24 yrs!). Thanks for your help, and if anyone else
has the same underbunk arrangement and wants to retain 2 separate 70-gallon tanks,
I'm happy to act as an intermediary to see if we can drive the price down.
Stephen February 2006
______________________________________________________________________________________
Considering the price of heavy duty
polyethylene tanks that we use in the lab, this does seem a fairly steep price
for water tanks. Searching the web, West
Marine, Defender US and other boat places, seems that they stock Todd
Polyethylene tanks for about $175 for a 55 gallon unit. Perhaps if a group of
people needing water tanks directly approached Todd Manufacturing, they could
make up a bunch at an even more reasonable price. Flexible tanks are about the
same. There are many manufacturers of fiberglass water tanks with relatively
reasonable prices. What is the great advantage of having a pair of custom made
steel tanks fabricated for $1,400 each?
I also wonder why
not use plastic tanks for fuel, as well. If these plastic tanks are kept out of
the sunlight, they can last for several decades, according to the bits that I
have read.
regards,
________________________________________________________________________
Large tanks (all) need baffles to
stop the impact of the contents surging against the endwalls, etc. Rotomolded
polyethylene tanks usually dont have baffles; hence, the need for custom
fabricating (with baffles) .. at a monsterous price.
'Bladders' without baffles are also
destroyed by the same action (plus abrasion). I had a large bladder
holding tank 'get away' from me one time .... I instantly learned the
functional definition of the medieval term: 'nosegay'.
Rich Hampel February
2006
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Rich,
The polyethylene water tank we have
in our bilge is only 50 gallons, but has prominent baffles.
regards,
________________________________________________________________________
I am still looking for a curved water tank with pre-installed
baffles to use as a water tank to be installed under the dinette bench. No
luck. I have tentatively decided to go with a flexible/collapsing 37-gallon
tank by Nauta. Lack of baffles bothers me. At present, we only have a 50-gallon
polyethylene tank in the bilge.
regards,
______________________________________________________________________________________
I had two, flexible
Nauta tanks in my old Pearson 34 for water and two for waste. The the ones for
waste were questionable, due to the odor.
I changed both
water tanks when I bought the boat, because it was difficult to get the bad taste out of them. They
weren't expensive and the replacement was easy. One of my tanks was leaking
when I bought it, so you need to make sure that they drain into the bilge. Mine
were 25 gallons each, so I'd suggest that you buy smaller tanks and
hook them together with shutoffs. That way you don't have to worry about
baffles.
My tanks were
vented. The largest two problems I had was 1) overfilling and 2) getting
the water out. If you overfill the
tanks, they bulge and can explode. The other is how to get the take-off fitting
low enough to siphon the tanks empty. You need to have easy access to the tanks
so you can watch them fill.
I have heard
stories of successfully using flexible tanks for diesel while off-shore. They
make good temporary storage. There is no reason why they couldn't be used for
water in the same capacity.
Now the holding tanks, that's a different story!!!!
Bruce March 2006
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Hi James, Nick, Bruce,
The problem with our current
setup is that the previous owner had replaced the original 100-gallon water
tank in the bilge with a 50-gallon tank. The tank is polyethylene and seems in
good shape. It has internal baffles. But it is a bit small at only 50-gallons.
In view of cost and the various horror stories I keep hearing about metal
tanks, I like the notion of polyethylene tanks. But I can't find a source for
any tanks similar to the one presently in our boat, regardless of the size.
The notion of getting a flexible tank is only because
I happened to find a new Nauta 37 gallon tank at a recent swap meet. My
concerns are exactly the ones you have mentioned.
regards,
________________________________________________________________________
Hi Nick,
I am not quite so discouraged about the matter of
tanks. Perhaps we can ask Neil about the possibility of Tayana making up
suitable tanks and shipping them over.
John Lewis recently posted the CAD drawings for the
dimensions of the tanks on his new T-37 Pilothouse. The dimensions seem to also
match that needed for the regular T-37.
The CAD drawings were prepared by Basil at Ta-Yang, so we know that they
are accurate.
I also wonder if one of the
I have only looked into the tanks made by Ronco and by
Todd. But there are a number of other companies that make water tanks. Another
consideration would be to have them made of fiberglass. There is a type of
fiberglass that is safe for drinking water. And... it would never rust or rot
out! That is also the attraction of polyethylene tanks.
Yet another strategy that comes to mind is to buy
several smaller tanks that can be lined up vertically next to each other in the
bilge, e.g., (4) 25 gallon tanks. You can then easily build a manifold of PVC
pipe and irrigation types of ball valves, and select the tank you want to use.
This strategy has a number of advantages, including allowing you to keep a more
careful check on water usage, and also if one tank becomes contaminated, it
won't spoil the rest of your supply. (You could then even flavor one with
lemon, another cherry, raspberry, and chocolate, so you would have
"designer water flavors".) Since each tank would have only 25
gallons, you wouldn't need baffles. (Gee, I like this idea enough that I may
see if I can find tanks of the correct sizes on the Internet.)
You might also check out Don Casey's book "This
Old Boat" (or some such title). He has a section on fabricating new water
and fuel tanks.
regards,
______________________________________________________________________________________
The S.S. water tanks Ta Yang now buys are very
high quality, redesigned for the welds and most important, a better welder.
When I return home
(tonight) I have a few suggestions for reasonable local manufacturers that
would be cheaper than importing from
Neil Wineberg March 2006
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Hi
David,
The CAD drawings of
the water and fuel tanks in John Lewis's boat can be found at:
http://tognews.com/ftpfiles/Active_Transport/drawings%20of%20tanks%20in%20T37%20581/ However,
there may be enough variation in the construction of these boats, that you
should double check to be certain that these dimensions apply to your boat as
well.
regards,
________________________________________________________________________
On this
subject, I have heard that West System suggests a method of coating the
interior and merely uses the old tank for shape. While I have not checked this
out, the source said that West Systems gave detailed instructions (using their
products of course) and the favorable end result was done with tanks in place.
If true, this might save a lot of time and $$ on this issue. You may wish to
contact them to see if my source is correct.
David svhegira April
2006
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WEST SYSTEM is probably a good time and
money economical method of refurbishing/relining a fuel tank. However, WEST
does not have a material that is FDA approved for potable water. For potable water tank linings, go to
Interlux Marine Division and see (or do websearch) for their product
"Interline, 925" .... suitable for lining potable water tanks.
Rich Hampel Ty37 #423 "Aquila April 2006
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