Heaters
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       Sailnet/TOG Tayana List 

John, 
    Many thanks for the very helpful comments on the heater problem. I have just about decided to shift over to the Propane unit for the Cozy Cabin heater. We have a propane stove/oven, so the extension to the heater might not be too bad. Do you run the propane line from a TEE junction on the stove, or do you have a completely separate line all the way from the storage tank? Do you use a separate solenoid for the heater and another for the stove? I worry about running a rubber propane hose all that distance from the propane locker to the forward bulkhead in front of the head. What precautions did you take? Did you run it through a protective pipe? 
 
   I just installed a Blue Systems Solenoid, but it doesn't have a sniffer for propane gas. Do you have one? Which brand? Where did you install the sniffer? 
 
   BTW, your note on the Butterfly hatch came at just the right time. I am in the midst of refinishing it, and have a small drip coming from the corners. I wondered where it might be coming from, and had started to focus on the miter joints. I will take your advice, and thanks for saving me much time and aggravation. 
 
regards, Harvey									January 2001
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Harvey,
   I do have a suggestion; stay with diesel, but switch to a Sigmar or Dickinson, and don't use a pressure tank. Use a gravity-fed tank. You may experience flare-ups when initially calibrating the nit's valve to your fuel flow, and until you get the hang of lighting it, but after that, you should not have any flare-ups. Having said that, the only real safety device on these heaters is a valve float bowl overflow. Also, on the Sigmar, it takes in air through a 3" opening on the bottom of the unit, intended for an equal-pressure intake pipe routed through the cabin (but not required). You can cut off the air to this intake opening and reduce or extinguish the flame. Never have been very satisfied with either the propane or diesel Cozy Cabin heaters...

Greg											     January 2001
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   Never have been very satisfied with either the propane or diesel Force 10 Cozy Cabin heaters...

Greg											     January 2001
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Greg,
    What was the reason for your dissatisfaction with the Force 10 Cozy Cabin units?  One of the original things that was appealing was the small flue pipe hole through the coach roof.  I also thought that 6,000 BTUs should be adequate for a T37. Problem is in the implementation.

Harvey											     January 2001
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Harvey,
   ABYC Standard A-1 states that all connections must be in the propane tank storage locker (vents/drains overboard in case of a leak).  In addition to the solenoid, you should have a pressure gauge at the tank to check for leaks in the system (pressurize the system by opening the tank and solenoid, then shut off the tank valve, wait a few minutes and see if the pressure drops).  Some of the early Tayanas were fitted with gate valves in the galley for turning the gas on/off.  These are big no-no's and must be eliminated.  As far as propane sniffers, Xintex is probably the most popular.

Derek								          			      January 2001
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Derek,
    I recently revised the propane delivery system to the stove in accordance with the guidelines you described and have three drain lines from the bottom of the propane locker connected to through hulls above the water line. . I gather from your response that I have to mount a second solenoid in the propane locker and run a continuous hose from the locker all the way to the propane heater?

   I plan to add the Xintex sniffer.

many thanks, Harvey									      January 2001
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Harvey,
   Xintex is really a great outfit  to deal with.  I had my Xintex controller blow out on me just before a trip (too much rf in the cabin one day when I was tuning my ham rig) and they rushed another to me via overnight UPS.  They were most cordial and helpful.

Regards, Marv (Derek Rhymes)						    	      January 2001
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Todd,
    We have had fairly extensive experience with the Espar (also called Eberspacher) on a boat that we have used for the past three or four summers along the coast of British Columbia. It uses ducted hot air, burns minute amounts of diesel fuel, and is absolutely terrific. The D4 is the correct unit for a 37-footer. It has a thermostat, and works with the simplicity of your house heating system. On cool mornings in September, the first person out of the bunk turns it on. Within a few minutes, it fully heats up the interior of our friend's 35-footer. He has an enclosed dodger, so we then go up into the cockpit with coffee and wearing only shorts and a tee shirt, and can sit comfortably in toasty comfort, sipping our coffee and staring at the glaciers.

   The price you are being quoted is typical, but outrageous. Two problems - the units being sold in the U.S. are often not the latest model. The latest models have a fully digital controller with much better control than the old manual controllers. The other issue is the price and ease of installation.
You can buy the same unit from Chandleries in England for about half that amount. They are packaged as DIY units - DIY = Do-It-Yourself. This is not rocket science. You have to lay out the plans for where you want the duct work, and cut holes in the correct places for the outlet plenums (?Hmm? Should that be plenata?), run a small diesel fuel line, cut a hole for the exhaust, mount the burner, and run a line from a circuit breaker. The exhaust line is small and unobtrusive, and uses a 1" or 1.5" inch exhaust line on the stern of the boat.

   The major problem with ordering it from England is the high volume of the DIY package, as it includes a lot of low cost flexible duct pipe. But try MMS Direct in Sheppington, England. It really makes sailing in cold climate a pleasure.

   We had the same unit on a boat we chartered this past Fall in Sweden. What a god-send!  We installed a Force 10 Cozy Cabin heater before we learned about the Espar.  We have the pressure diesel unit, and it is really lousy in comparison to the Espar. But the Force 10 only costs about $300 or $400.

regards, Harvey							        		  February 2002
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   What is the diameter of the venting flue that goes through the coach roof?  I presently have a Force 10 Cozy Cabin Diesel heater. It uses a pressurized tank, and a Primus type of burner. It looks a lot better than it performs. It was a bit too cozy for comfort, when it flamed out of control and practically burned up the boat. I subsequently learned how to use it at less risk, but still don't feel comfortable with it. I had thought of converting to the Propane version, but the notion of adding yet another propane line into the cabin was not appealing. The worst part of the Cozy Cabin Force 10 is that it just doesn't put out enough heat to really warm things even during our San Diego winters (temps in the  40's), and is near worthless when the companionway is open to the cockpit.

   In the event that we end up trucking north to Seattle and then sailing up to Alaska, I was considering a better heater. We were impressed with the performance and heat output of the Espar heater on boats we used in Pacific Northwest. Anyone have experience comparing the Espar and the Dickinson. The Espar uses ducting, with a proper thermostat, and was really a delight. Turn
the thermostat up and in 5 minutes the cabin is warm as toast. But price is about $2,000 (U.S.), and installation may be complicated.

 regards, Harvey									      August 2002
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   We're getting ready to install a Dickenson Chesapeake diesel fired cabin heater and I would like some recommendations about supplying fuel to it. The most convenient way would be to use an electric pump to supply fuel directly from the main tank. The low tech option would be gravity feed from a "day" tank.

   The electric pump option avoids having to find a place to put the day tank and the inevitable fuel spills that would occur (in the cabin) when filling it. However, if the pump fails to cut off, it could pump the entire contents of the main tank into the bilge via the cabin.

    With the gravity feed option, the worst spill would be a couple of gallons. However, there would always be the drips from filling it.

   A small tank and a manual or momentary-on electric pump seems to be the best way to avoid spills, but at the complication of having both a tank and a pump.

   Has anyone had any experience with any of these methods? Are there alternatives? Can the direct feed method be made reliable enough that spills are extremely unlikely?

Coleman Blake      Traveler     T-37    #328						     October 2003
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   My Force 10 has a separate 1 gal tank mounted beneath a settee. Since it is below the heater, gravity feed won't work. The tank is airtight and is pressurized using a small bicycle pump. An electric pump would have to have a pressure cut-off switch like your fresh-water pump, or a return system like the engine. Both sound like a pain and a lot more to fail, but I have no personal experience to base this upon.

   Can't tell you about spills - I've never had to use the heater in the  Caribbean! :-)

Charlie         s/v Kamaloha         T37        #542					     October 2003
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Subject: Propane vs. Diesel heaters
   Has anyone researched the pros and cons of the two and compared them.  Seems if one has both propane and diesel onboard the propane would be cleaner with less chance of mess. And or pumps to pressurize the diesel.  Just going through the motions for the future.

Mike Fortman										     October 2003
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   I tried to do that in a comparison of the Force 10 Cozy Cabin heater. It can be purchased in either Diesel of Propane versions.  I focused on this model as it only requires a 1" hole in the deck, rather
than the more common 3" hole. The flue cap is fairly unobtrusive. (But see comment below about the flue guard). The same flue diameter pipe is used for both the Diesel and the Propane.  They do not consume any electrical energy (in comparison to the Espar and Webasto diesel heaters).

    I bought the Diesel unit, and don't like it. But I can try to reconstruct my experience, pro and con.
The BTU out put of the Diesel is slightly higher than that of the propane. The main advantages of Diesel are that it is much safer to use than Propane.  Propane leaks are wildly explosive.  Diesel burns with a drier flame, whereas propane tends to produce a lot of moisture in a closed cabin.
Diesel fuel is easily available.

   Now for the downside:
The burner is the same type of old fashioned burner that is found in small Primus backpacking stoves.
The Diesel unit requires priming with alcohol and uses a pressurized 1Gallon tank that provides the fuel supply. Filling the tank is a pain, as there is no simple way to determine how much fuel you still have left in the tank. I put the tank in a locker behind the dinette bench seat.
Dirt in the fuel can plug the burner.
Failure to adjust the control correctly can result in flames and burning diesel fuel spurting all over the place. The heat output is OK, once you do have it adjusted correctly. But I had a fire with our unit, with flaming diesel fuel spurting all over the place. It taught me the value of knowing how to use your fire extinguisher on the first try. I finally adjusted the burner, and take great care to use lots of alcohol to fully heat the burner during the priming operation.  A major factor in my decision was based on the mistaken idea that Propane might be hard to get in northern British Columbia and Alaska. I recently found out that propane is readily available in most places.
It gives off smell of diesel.
Even when reasonably well adjusted, it results in soot on the cabin liner.
You simply CANNOT allow an inexperienced person to light this. Priming it when you are in rough water is risky, as the flaming alcohol can slop out of priming cup and onto the cabin floor. 

   The Propane unit on the Force 10 Cozy Cabin heater has a built in oxygen sensor. When the oxygen level in the cabin falls too low, the unit shuts down.
It is easy to light.
The heat output is somewhat less than the Diesel.
I disliked the notion of running yet another propane hose line into the cabin. You cannot tap a Tee into a propane line to the stove. (ABYC standards, I understand.) It is considered unsafe to do so.
But a second propane appliance in the cabin raises the risk of fire/explosion.

   The Diesel unit is about 30-50% more expensive than the Propane. I wish I could tell you that it is worth it. The only half decent news is that I can now light it reasonably safely, and that I can buy a burner to convert from Diesel to Propane for about half the price of a completely new unit. I still
dislike the notion of adding another propane appliance.

   The 1" flue is very nice, as it is less obtrusive, but the guard on the cover on the deck is held in place with 3 very skimpy and poorly done welds.  It came off one day when I just gently brushed against it. I have to disassemble the whole deck fitting to have it re-welded.  The company claims that it is safe to run the heaters while sailing. I am unhappy about the notion of running it while sailing.

   My experience on other boats with Espar heaters is far more favorable, but also has downsides. You turn up the thermostat and the heat  goes on.  It is a forced hot air system, with ductwork to deliver the heat to desired locations. Thus the heat distribution is much better than on a single diesel furnace such as the Dickinson or the Force 10. But the installation can be more complicated.  It does give off an odor of burning diesel, and can get mildly nauseating.  They generate far more BTUs than the Force 10 Cozy Cabin heaters.  MUCH more expensive. i.e., ca. $2,000 vs. $300 (assuming you do your own installation).

   It also depends upon where you live. If you are in the Caribbean, you probably worry more about chilling your beer than heating your cabin.  In Southern California, the Force 10 is adequate most of the time.  In British Columbia and Alaska the Espar type of heater is the only way to go. Most of the boats in Seattle and further north use Espar, as do many of the boats in Sweden.

   Hope this helps you make a decision.

regards, Harvey									     October 2003
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   Our T37 came with the Dickenson Arctic heater.  Learning curve for us.  It must be clean, clean, clean when you first fire it up.  Follow the owner’s manual.  Ours just had 'a little soot' in the area of the burner hole. My wife fired it up the first time.  Started easily, looked nice and went downhill from there.  (Diesel smoke is very oily for the uninitiated)  More checking showed a few potential problems.  We are gravity feed from the bow tank.  it runs through an automotive type sediment bowl/filter then a pressure regulator.  Those all needed to be cleaned.  Then the 'carburetor' needed cleaned.  Not really a carb, but a float bowl/needle valve regulator.  After all that and several internal soot cleanings it seems to be working ok, with the exception of a slow drip at one of the copper connections between the regulator and the stove.  Hard to get the copper bent sharply
enough to make it all fit.  I'm sure it will fit, just need to hold your mouth right when assembling.

   We put a Webasto forced air diesel heater in our other boat and like it real well.  Our only sailing at this time is in the Pacific Northwest from November to March.  Did I mention condensation prior to the Webasto?  We had a force 10 bulkhead kerosene heater prior to the Webasto.  Might be OK for an occasional snappy morning, but definitely not for winter cruising in the PNW.

   The Webasto is easy to install and maintain, runs on a thermostat and is out of the way.  We ran the ducting through the lockers with outlets strategically placed where my wife’s cold feet can always find them. Warm porcelain in the morning can be a good thing.  If the Dickenson continues to belch out diesel soot, it's gone and a Webasto will take its place.

Michael Kahler	S/V Liberation		PH 37					      October 2003
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    Thanks for all the information and experiences regarding the diesel and propane heaters. Ours is actually a Chesapeake II model. It came (uninstalled and unused) with the boat. The manual mentions two ways to supply fuel: 1) gravity feed from a storage tank 12" above the oil metering valve (I am not crazy about that being located in the hanging locker) which the mfgr. prefers, and 2) an impulse pressure pump to supply diesel from the main tank (for us aft amidships between the galley and nav station). The manual also warns that, while this is the simplest method, the pump cannot pressurize more than 3 PSI or "dangerous flooding may result." 

   We don't know exactly how old the unit is, but it's not much newer than the boat, an '83). Perhaps there have been technological improvements in pump reliability and technology since the manual was printed?

   In any event, the yard will do the installation. They said that the most common installation is the pump from the main tank, but they are going to research and make suggestions and ultimately install it however we decide....

   It all comes down to the "what ifs"....bright idea - maybe I should check out a mfgr. website and see if there is any worthwhile info. In the meantime, all comments are greatly appreciated.

   And yes, the heater may be a bit of overkill for the Chesapeake most of the time, but we plan to spend time cruising Maine.

Sandra Blake	T37	 Traveler	Hull #328					     October 2003
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Sandra:
   I just got off the phone with Dickinson's customer support person. She said that the diesel heaters can burn kerosene if you recalibrate the fuel supply valve.  "John" is going to call me back to walk me through this.  The procedure is apparently described in the owner's manual, but I've managed to lose it somehow. . . . . When I get the call, I'll get his opinion on how much cleaner the heater burns with kerosene.  I've heard from several users that the difference is significant. 

Dayton											     October 2003
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   I have the Dickinson "Antarctic" sure keeps the boat cozy. I have a 2 Gal tank for gravity feed. The tank is filled by way of a diesel pump.  Owners with the "Faball" heater feel it burns much cleaner than Dickinson...and having seen theirs in operation...I agree.....I believe Faball was started by previous Dickinson employees.

Denis Beaudry		S/V Tayana							     October 2003
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   I have used an oil-filled radiator on several of my boats to keep the chill off during the winter. I consider them safer than a heater with an exposed heating element. You can get them a Walmart, Target, etc.  Mine has a thermostat and a low, medium, high setting. What temperature range do you have there? I live in KY and it will keep my T-37 around 50 in the main cabin when it's 30 degrees outside and the unit is set on medium.

Alan Jett										  December 2003
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   We lie aboard in Boston.  We use one of the oil filled heaters from Wal-Mart.  It has a dial type thermostat (settings from 0 - 7) plus two switches.  You can use one switch for low heat, the other for medium, and both for high.  All are still controlled by the thermostat; the only difference is how hot the heater gets and therefore how long it stays on to reach the set temperature.  We rarely use it in any position other than "low" and it keeps the boat at 68 to 72 degrees depending on how much heat we feel we need.  Note:  we do cover the boat which decreases the need for heat considerably.  Yesterday it was sunny and temp in the 40's and we were sitting in the cockpit reading without any special clothing.  We like the oil filled heater because it at least seems safer, but then, we also use a ceramic heater in the engine room.  Ours is a V-42 Center Cockpit.  So the engine is just forward of the aft stateroom and beside the aft head.  By leaving the door to the engine compartment open to the aft head that heater provides for a warm head and shower and a warm aft cabin (where we sleep) plus it heats under the cabin sole which is often the coldest part of a boat.

   These two heaters are all we have after the water temp gets below about 40 degrees.  Above that temperature we have a 16,000 BTU reverse cycle heat pump.  It is out of commission right now for faulty wiring and we are finding we really prefer to go without it as it is much noisier than the ceramic heater - and the oil filled on makes no noise at all.  Stay warm...

Mark Handley		S/V Windbird 		Tayana		 V-42 cc		  December 2003
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John,
   I have the same heater that came with my boat. It had a piece of thin plywood behind it which was very unattractive. I had a piece of 3/16" copper cut to the correct shape and used some insulating spacers between the metal and the bulkhead. I am real happy with the results. I do believe it is
necessary to insulate the bulkhead from the heat of the furnace.

   Correction - I used a sheet of insulating material, cut slightly smaller than the copper, behind the copper sheet and small round insulating disks under the furnace's mounting feet.

Alan Jett										      January 2004
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   Alan, have you noticed a moisture problem with this heater?   That had not occurred to me as an issue but it sure makes sense from a chemistry perspective.

   Now I’m starting to wonder if I might be better off just going straight to the installation of a recirculating coolant based system that uses diesel for fuel.  The idea of installing a radiator behind
the foot rest in the pilot house seems very attractive.

   The cost and effort associated with installing a serious heating system are issues but I have found
that going straight to the correct solution is frequently also the least expensive option.

John Lewis										       January 2004
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Choices:
   The first three run and provide heat when anchored, or when sailing.

1) Bulkhead mount solid or liquid (propane or diesel) heaters - Dickinson, Newport, Force 10, Atlantic, etc. Pain in the neck to use if diesel, smells. Potential for fire or explosion if propane, but easier to service and to get started. Very efficient, but passive distribution of heat. Try a Caframo fan to help distribute heat. The Caframo fan uses a Pletier module to generate electricity to rotate fan. The Caframo is relatively inexpensive addition to this type of heating system. Prices for heater vary from $250-$1,000. Bigger heaters require a 3" wide flue for venting. 

2) Forced hot air on diesel: Espar, Webasto, Wallas - usually diesel. Very efficient, forced hot air circulating. Easily ducted to all parts of boat. Runs on thermostat. Uses electricity, so you rely on your batteries when anchored or sailing. Quite expensive. Installation is not too difficult, but if you have a shipyard do it, the total bill can be over $4,000. Some have very sophisticated flue system for exhaust and fresh air intake.

3) Circulating hot water - diesel (or propane) is used to heat a hot water reservoir, and then circulate the hot water through pipes. Works on the same principle as the system in most homes: Espar, Webasto, Wallas. Similar to #2), but said to provide more even heating. Even more difficult to install. But can also be used to produce lots of hot water for washing, etc.

If motoring, there is another possibility that generates a lot of heat:
4) Circulating hot water through an Automobile type of heater. Uses the hot water produced by the engine cooling system. Water is pumped through a small radiator, and a fan blows warm air through the cabin. Uses a fair amount of electricity, but since it only operates when the engine is running, that is not a problem. Excellent heat output, easily ducted to all parts of the boat, including the cockpit. Good as a secondary heating system, but not when anchored or sailing. Very inexpensive - ca. $200. Very easy to install, no complications, lots of warm air. Only useful when motoring.

If tied up to a dock with shore power, a nice small electrical heater works well. Very cheap - $30.

Harvey J. Karten, M.D.								    February 2004
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Tim,
   The Red Dot and the Heatercraft units are apparently almost identical. You might try checking the Red Dot Website for an installation manual.

   I'm not sure what you mean by "...is there a maximum difference you can run the hoses..."? or did you mean "...maximum distance..." The way we have ours set up, the output goes from the engine block forward and under the cabin sole about 4 feet to the Heatercraft, then the return hose goes all the way back into the lazarette (about 8 feet aft of the heater) where I have my Seaward Hot Water heater (6 Gallon), and from there forward to the engine. Just make sure that all hoses are of the very best quality, and use highest quality double hose clamps. You don't want to have an engine suddenly lose all it's cooling water! I was a bit nervous about the length of hose involved, but so far.....

   The major difference I found (after properly bleeding the system to avoid airlock and potential overheating) was that the average engine water temperature dropped about 10 degrees F. from about 174 to about 164 degrees.  This is still more than adequate for the engine temp, and also puts out
enough heat to keep the Seaward Hot water nice and hot, while also pumping out lots of hot air for comfort. I presently have a 156 deg thermostat in the engine. If this proves to be a problem, I can shift to a slightly higher temp thermostat. 

   I may yet decide to install a U-bypass fitting for summertime, so that there is no heat coming out the Heatercraft unit, and helps keep the cabin at normal temp for summer cruising. My only reservation about doing that is that it means yet another set of fittings in the cooling system, with the potential for leaks.  Hope this helps.

regards, Harvey									        March 2004
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Susan, 
   I believe that the Wallas from Finland, was specifically designed for Marine use. 
 
   We ended up with the Force 10 Diesel/Kerosene heater. I'm not wild about it. It is prone to flaring up, leaves an odor of burning diesel in the cabin, and probably consumes much oxygen. I mounted a Carbon Monoxide detector a few feet away from it. 
 
   All told, I don't really like it, but was reluctant to run yet another propane line into the cabin. The Force 10 Propane heater does have an oxygen sensor. When the oxygen falls below a safety level (?), the propane shuts off. 

regards, Harvey									      October 2004
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Harvey,
    I've not come across a Wallas heater and couldn't readily find any information online. I had the same problems with the Force 10 diesel heater on my boat as you have with yours. After a few years, I converted to Force 10's Cozy Cabin propane heater, which I like much better. If I ever move back aboard, I'll upgrade to the newer sealed chamber model.
 
   Per ABYC A-26, oxygen depletion sensors should shut off the flow of fuel to the heater's burner when the oxygen level in the cabin falls below 95% of normal.
 
Susan Canfield	Aeolus/T37	 #-305		Annapolis, MD		      October 2004
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    I came across this great article which talks about selecting a heater for a boat....
www.seacraft.com/heaterinformation.htm
 
fyi, John Hovan 	s/v Celtic Dream						     October 2004
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   Interesting article, but they don't mention the various direct diesel or propane burners. It is heavily oriented towards the Webasto and Espar types of heaters, using either forced hot air or circulating hot water heaters. The Force 10 Cozy Cabin Propane is the easiest to install, and easiest to use (see Susan Canfield and John Lewis's notes). Only concerns are running yet another propane line into the cabin, and the risks of propane leaks, and the tendency of propane to produce a lot of moisture when burning. This is not a serious problem in mild climates, but the moisture can be a serious problem in northern climate, where it can produce serious condensation in a closed cabin. 
 
   The direct combustion diesel burners, such as the Dickinson, Newport, Luke and Force 10, all vary in their ease of use, soot production, fire hazard (very serious with the Force 10 diesel - we had a major fire flare and almost lost the boat - then spent a lot of time cleaning up the mess from the fire extinguisher!). The Newport, Dickinson, Arctic and Luke are all solid units, but also require a large 3" hole in the coach with a suitable chimney. Lots of heat – nice, dry, low-moisture. Unlike the Espar and Webasto, they do not use any electricity.
 
   Also worth checking out the Wallas heaters from Finland. www.wallas.fi/index_eng.php
 
   The price on the Wallas, Espar and Webasto are all around $2,000 plus installation. The Force 10 propane is only about $300. Force 10 heater only requires a 1" flue pipe. Pays your money, n' takes your chances.

regards, Harvey									     October 2004
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   There were several things that turned me off of the hot water type heaters.  
 
   First the installation would have been a major project requiring major cutting of woodwork in the cabin.  
 
   The fuel pump for these systems is really noisy and, worse yet, its an intermittent noise that would drive me nuts when trying to sleep. 

   The heaters make a putt-putt sort of noise when they are operating.
 
   The guy I had give me an estimate on installing one made a major pitch for installing an electric heater for use at the dock to cut down on wear and tear on the diesel heater.  By the time he finished that presentation he had talked himself out of an order.
 
   The most attractive thing about the circulating water type of heater was its ability to heat water for domestic use.  
 
   The Force 10 propane heater appears to be more than I need in SF bay.  I rarely run it full blast for more than 10 or 15 minutes and usually end up turning it off within a half hour of starting it.  I don’t know what the propane usage is but don’t think its much.  My last 20 lb tank lasted a year and a half for stove use only.  Even if the heater doubles my propane consumption it will be acceptable. 
 
   I have observed no condensation associated with its use.  I have heard that condensation is a problem with most heaters in really cold damp places where the temperature of the hull will condense the water vapor in the breath of the people on the boat.  
 
   I do have a little electric heater for use at the dock but don’t like tripping over it so I rarely use it. 
 
   About the only other heater I plan to install is one that works off the boats engine.   Harvey sings the praises of that arrangement and the idea of having a heating register at the foot rest of my inside steering station is very attractive.  
 
John Lewis										     October 2004
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   With all the talk of cabin heaters, I did some research on Webasto and Espar units.  Both of these units are considered the "Porsches" of heaters from what I read.
 
   Espar is one brand of diesel heater that uses forced air.  List price is around $4,200 for the 5LC unit which would work in a Tayana.  Below is a website to obtain the manuals on their products....They also sell hydronic units as well.  Most research I read, says to stay away from hydronic units on smaller boats due to complexity and maintenance etc.
www.espar.com/htm/tecmans.htm
 
   Webasto is a second brand with costs around $3,200 for their AT 5000 unit which would work in a Tayana.  Again, the below website is not listed, but contains all their manuals....
http://www.techwebasto.com/blueheat_main.htm .
 
   Both units are made in Germany according to the Espar distributor in Rhode Island.  He said the factories are right down the road from each other.  I asked why the Espar was so much more money and he spoke about distribution channel's etc.  Webasto doesn't have as many middle men/women.
 
   One issue I see with both these styles of heaters that are considered "forced air" versus types like Dickinson which are considered "draft" is that the exhaust lines need to be channeled out of the stern of the boat well above the water line.  I already had a heater exhaust cap in my coach roof, but both manufacturers recommended not using a coach roof exhaust.  Thus, the most likely installation for a unit is in the cockpit locker.  Some folks didn't like the fact that the unit is operating in the locker where you couldn't see it.  The other issue would be routing the ducting forward in the boat.  With Tayana lockers etc, this can be a bit of an issue.  I believe both manufacturers recommended around 4-5 vents within the cabin off the main distribution line.
 
   I see the advantage of the forced air type of heater is the complete lack of diesel smell.  Has anyone had good luck with bulkhead mounted heaters?  I really hate the smell of diesel and would like to have some heat while anchoring on cold nights.  I froze my Christmas ornaments off in Matagorda bay last year around the holidays.  No fun!
 
John Hovan	s/v Celtic Dream							     October 2004
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All,
   Below are some more thoughts on bulkhead heaters after talking to a few installers....
 
   Diesel Bulkhead heaters have these major issues:
1. The chimney's can displace enough heat to blacken nearby teak.
2.  They are prone to backdrafting unless the model has a backdraft prevention line.  (Sigmar is the only one I know of that has this, but requires two coach roof fittings. 
www.sigmarine.com/support.htm)
3. They cannot be operated unattended since there are documented cases of the jets remaining open and sending a lot of fuel into the unit causing a mini Chernobyl meltdown.
4. Diesel smell in the cabin can be an issue.
 
 John Hovan										November 2004
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   The Taylor heater, which is a nice unit, comes with all the accessories.  If you price up the Dickinson with a similar accessory package, the cost is about the same. The Taylor also has a unique mounting that allegedly doesn't require additional fire shield construction (stainless or ceramic tile) for the installation.  Figure that with flue pipe, pump or day tank, fuel piping, deck flange, flue cap, etc., it is going to cost $1500 in parts and materials to set up a diesel heater.

Elwood Swank									  November 2004
________________________________________________________________________________

 All,
    It appears that Sailnet does not carry diesel heaters.  So I 'm publishing the below info.
 
   The Taylor brand bulkhead diesel heater has been recommended to me.  But, this little beauty costs almost $1,500 from Defender which is their American distributor.
www.defender.com/cgi-bin/Web_store/web_store.cgi?keywords=heater&frames=yes&store=yes
 
   Go2marine is running a sale on Dickenson heaters at $499.  Seems like a very attractive price.
www.go2marine.com/frameset.jsp?servletPath=/g2m&action=GoBPage&id=20001F&WT.mc_id=em3 
 
   Sigmar seems to carry what looks like a quality unit made in Canada.  Couldn't find pricing.
www.sigmarine.com/sigmar_120.htm
 
   Anyone seen all these heaters?  I'm curious to know why prices vary so much.  Quality can be a factor, but almost $1k more?  Wow.
 
fyi, John 	Celtic Dream								 November 2004
______________________________________________________________________________________
 
Wolter
   I installed a Wolter 160 propane water heater in the shower compartment shortly after I bought my boat in 1982 and have used it happily ever since (including ten years of daily use as a liveaboard). The Wolter heater, however, is no longer in production, but Gerry Wolter's present company, Precision Temp (www.precisiontemp.com ), makes the ShowerMate heater. Steve Aldrich in Precision Temp's service department also services/repairs the original Wolter heaters  (www.wolterwaterheater.com). The Wolter heaters do not meet ABYC standards because they have neither an oxygen depletion sensor nor a sealed combustion chamber. Mine does have an exhaust vent to the boat's exterior, and given the louvered ventilation at the bottom of the head door and the 12V exhaust fan I've installed in the head, the oxygen depletion risk is certainly minimized. The ShowerMate heater can be installed with an optional sealed combustion system (in which the air intake, combustion chamber and exhaust are sealed from the boat's interior). Bosch's AquaStar (www.boschusa.com/JumpPages/WaterHeaters) has a sealed system option as well.
 
   If you install either the ShowerMate or AquaStar without the sealed system option, and this fact is noted in a survey inspection report, you could have difficulty getting marine insurance. Fortunately, my Wolter heater is grandfathered since it was installed prior to the current ABYC standard.
 
http://web.mac.com/precisiontemp/iWeb/TwinTemp/Junior.html 

Sue Canfield		Aeolus/T37 #-305	Annapolis, MD			 November 2004
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Hi Sue,
   Is there any way to retrofit a "sealed" combustion chamber on older heaters, such as the Force 10 Cozy Cabin Diesel. I worry about the possibility of Carbon Monoxide, oxygen depletion, and just the general stink and soot.

   One of the units I recently read about that sounds quite good is the Wallas 30D. It draws air for combustion from the outside via a double walled pipe, is very efficient, uses little electricity, and apparently is quite safe. Also very expensive with the frightening drop in the value of the dollar against most foreign currencies.

regards, Harvey									     January 2005
______________________________________________________________________________________

Harvey,
   Unfortunately, there's no conversion kit for Force 10's Cozy Cabin diesel heater. However, their Cozy Cabin propane heater is ABYC-compliant since it has an oxygen depletion sensor/fuel shutoff system . A comparable sensor/fuel shutoff system has not been developed for diesel heaters. Consequently, to be ABYC-compliant, a diesel heater must have a sealed combustion system (like Force 10's newer Direct Vent heater).
  
Sue Canfield		Aeolus/T37 #-305	Annapolis, MD			    January 2005
______________________________________________________________________________________

John,
    I might be wrong, but I think the sealed combustion chamber that is fed by outside air is not just about reducing the effects of backdraft or downdraft.  I think it is an added protection against carbon monoxide released into the cabin, regardless of the malfunction that might cause such a release.
 
   If your combustion chamber is fed by cabin air, then the cabin is open to carbon monoxide if the stove malfunctions.
 
   Also, if you pull air from the outside for your combustion, you aren't using up the cabin air you have already heated and as the cabin air warms up without being sent up the chimney, the result is a very minor overpressure in the cabin that helps to negate cold drafts creeping in.  Even more efficient.
 
   Just some thoughts from someone who once spent cold nights in Alaskan cabin studying what made for a good heater.
 
Steve Wolfer										     January 2005
______________________________________________________________________________________

John,
   Looks like a 'cool' unit (esthetically, not thermally). I have the Force 10 diesel. In part, I may have chosen it for the wrong reasons - I liked the fact that the flue only required a 1" hole in the coach roof, rather than a 3" hole. The profile of the vent on the outside was less obtrusive. I thought that a 6,000 BTU unit should be adequate for Southern California. I didn't think that having to prime it with alcohol was all that bad, after using similar heaters on mountaineering trips for much of my life. I also had the concern that I would be sailing in areas in the Pacific Northwest where it is difficult to obtain propane. (There is some validity to that. In almost all of places that we stopped 
along the way to Alaska, and we only stopped in about 5 proper harbors in a month, the only place to get propane was usually at some heating supply place that was usually 5-10 miles from the docks. That was true in Ketchikan and in Juneau, two of the larger town in Alaska.)

   I was reaaaaly wrong on a few of the critical things. The biggest pain is having to prime the damned thing. If you don't do it right, you can have flaming diesel fuel spitting out around the heater. It actually started a dangerous fire that required two fire extinguishers to put out. I finally learned to really let it prime with a lot more alcohol than I originally thought necessary. But priming it when under sail is not very appealing. The alcohol sloshes around and can start a fire of its own. This can be dealt with by using an igniting paste containing either gas or alcohol. As it turns out, even here in So California, it doesn't put out enough heat, unless I close the companionway doors and hatch. That makes for a potentially unhealthy environment. Your larger flue is part of having a higher BTU output, and is probably the better tradeoff.

   I also think that the unit you showed in your photos provides better protection from the flame. The Force 10 Cozy Cabin Diesel that I have has an exposed open combustion chamber. Scares the hell out of me sometimes. It also requires a 1 gallon pressurized day tank. This means that you have to use a small compressor to pressurize the tank to about 20 lbs. That's a bit of a hassle, and I dealt with it by buying a small tire compressor that runs on 12 Volts, though I understand that the 
company has suggested that you might get by with a small pressure pump to directly pump the diesel from a non-pressurized day tank.

   I was just looking at the new Force 10 heater with an external air intake and sealed combustion unit. It has a higher BTU output.  But that only works with their propane heater, not a diesel. In addition, it requires a 3" hole in the coach, and probably a protruding exhaust stack.

   Maybe the best solution would be to head to the Caribbean!

regards, Harvey								  	     January 2005
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Harvey,
   It was recommended to me, by Irvin Allen of Sigmar sales, to use paraffin for the pre-heat.  He said alcohol has two poor aspects.  First, it will "flare up" when initially lighting and second it is often difficult to see if there is a flame in the unit while burning.  Upon his suggestion, I purchased a couple bottles of paraffin/lamp oil from Walmart along with a small measuring shot glass.  1 oz is all that is required for the Sigmar and the shot glass gives me the right amount each time.  I'm sure it's not critical, but I wanted to develop some consistency with the pre-heat cycle. It usually will burn 10 minutes and then the heater lights right up when the fuel is turned on.  I plan on storing the paraffin in some of the REI MSR fuel canisters for extra safety.  The oil comes in a flimsy plastic bottle.
www.rei.com/online/store/ProductDisplay?storeId=8000&catalogId=40000008000&productId=47575375&parent_category_rn=5760743&vcat=REI_SEARCH

   I will also add that Irwin Allen is one of the most knowledgeable people on the practical usage of diesel heaters that I spoke with while doing research.  He's patient with my 1 million questions and has helped at every step of the way with a positive attitude.  To be honest, I haven't experienced this level of customer support in a very long time!  He's truly a great guy who really knows his stuff and returns phone calls!!  If anyone has questions on Sigmar diesel heaters, he can be reached at 
iallen@Uniserve.com.  His phone number is listed under the sales section at www.sigmarine.com/contacts.htm.   Many of the Sigmar heaters are on backorder.  The unit I was sent was a demo model used at a trade show.  It's physically perfect and I'm very impressed with the quality which I consider first rate.  It was even shipped with protective plastic everywhere on the polished stainless surfaces.

   The Sigmar heater is a gravity fed heater.  The electric pump only serves to fill the reservoir on the carburetor.  Once the reservoir is filled, a float shuts off the fuel supply to the reservoir.  The gravity feed to the heater is done via a jet similar to that of a motorcycle carburetor.  The jet is connected to the knob on the top of the carb.  Very neat and simple setup! The manual even has a section explaining how the heater works which was very enlightening and helps me understand what is going on when the heater is operating.  It's quite a bit more complex than what I thought and I marvel at the engineering which went into the heater design.

   I haven't tried firing up the heater while sailing, but the specs show that it will work with I believe 15 degrees of heel.  I wouldn't have any issues firing it up in the right conditions, since the heater is completely sealed once the mica window door is shut.  I'll report back once I use the heater at anchor.

   Regarding the installation, I wanted there to be a dramatic effect when you walked down the companionway.  I think I achieved this since the flame is one of the first things seen when coming down the ladder. Very welcoming. It also allows visibility to the flame from just about everywhere in the main cabin.  I wanted this for safety reasons.  One fact I left out is that I tried using the polished clamps directly on the compression post and found that the two polished stainless surfaces did not provide enough friction to hold the heater in place.  I went back to Walmart and purchased a $3 bike inner-tube and cut it in behind the clamp.  It now does not budge.

   Probably a lot more than you wanted to hear.  Can you tell I really like this diesel heater?  :)

John	s/v Celtic Dream	www.TayanaOwners.org				      January 2005
______________________________________________________________________________________

John,
   Sorry for the length of this response, but because of my own experience with this matter, it prompted this detailed commentary.

   The story about the diesel heater fire is almost the same thing that happened to me, but with less personal injury - but more because of dumb luck than smarts on my part.

   The Force 10 Cozy Cabin uses a pressurized   1 Gallon reserve tank. The burner itself is actually just an old fashioned Primus design, the same sort used in old Svea backpacking stoves. The difference only being that the Svea used white gasoline, and this uses diesel. If you don't have 
the cog wheel drive for the needle in the orifice set correctly, it can open and not close properly. After making some minor adjustment on the burner, and pressurizing the tank, I primed and lighted the burner. It didn't quite catch right, and started spewing flaming diesel. I tried to shut it down with the valve on the burner, but it couldn't close completely because I had missed the exact alignment position for the cog wheel. Flaming drops of diesel were spilling on the floor and onto a small cardboard box sitting on the floor. At that point I grabbed a small fire extinguisher and pulled the safety and tried to squeeze it - nothing happened. I grabbed a second one, and same thing.  I grabbed a piece of tarp and tried to smother the flames without much luck. I picked up the fire extinguisher and realized that I was supposed to push a trigger not pull it!! I managed to stop the fire at that time. I also released the pressure cap on the reserve tank, and the fuel finally 
stopped flowing at about the same time.

   The fire extinguisher made an incredible mess of the cabin, but the boat was intact, other that a bit of damage to the varnish.

   But there were several things that struck me afterwards. I remember being possessed by an anger at the damned fire that I felt was about to destroy my beloved boat. That was OK, but really stupid. I might well have been trapped down below. A boat cabin is a really small and enclosed place. I also hadn't trained myself to really think out the sequence of operations necessary. I also realized that I was on the verge of a panic response when the fire extinguishers initially didn't discharge. If the panic and anxiety had won out, I either would have been badly injured, or I could have lost the boat.

   PRACTICE USING A FIRE EXTINGUISHER! Particularly the specific brands that you have on the boat. In my usual compulsive way, with the safety orientation and backup mentality you learn in Med School, mountaineering and kayaking, I had 4 or 5 fire extinguishers within a few feet of where it happened. But I had never thought about actually using them. I assumed that they were the same as the type I learned to use 50 years ago. Pull the safety, and squeeze with your fingers towards your palm. NO! This type required that you  pull the safety and then press your thumb forward. Seemed obvious in retrospect, and why would I want to waste a perfectly new fire extinguisher just to test myself?? Dumb ass thing on my part. The particular brand had a nice handle that you wrap you fingers around, and I kept squeezing that. But it was only there to provide a stable grip on the unit, not to discharge the contents.

   I tried to use a tarp to extinguish the fire, but the continuing discharge of hot flaming diesle fuel was the big problem. In addition, the tarp was not fireproof, so it was really lucky that it didn't catch 
fire and make things worse. I should have had a "Fire Blanket". I tried to buy one after that, but couldn't find one. Your notes now prompt me to do so. If used in those situations where they are most appropriate, they can be the most appropriate first response. When we used to have alcohol stoves on boats, small fire blankets were the first line of defense.

So, there were two major aspects of the event:
1)	Bad design of the heater combined with my having misaligned the cog wheel when trying to figure out why it wasn't working quite right.
2)	2) Failure to have done proper fire drills.
3)	As to the bad design of the heater, it reflects the complete lack of proper safety standards in the design of that particular heater. I don't know about other units, and I certainly recognize that many people have used this type of heater for well over 100 years. I also should stress that I like a nice warm cabin both at anchor, and when sailing all day. I'm sure that the manufacturers will insist that the fault was mainly a result of the way I used it. I don't think that excuses the poor design.
4)	But I'll save my views on the several bad design features of open diesel heaters for another note. My only comment would be that I think that heaters such as the Wallas or Espar are inherently safer for a  number of reasons. Their drawbacks are few: Cost, they require electrical power consumption when operating, more complex and maintenance is tricky when things go wrong, and installation is more difficult with fans, ductwork, etc. But they use an external air source, a sealed combustion chamber, very little prospect of carbon monoxide in the boat, the heater itself can be in an isolated locker reducing the possibility of getting burned by touching the unit, no possible spray of flaming diesel fuel into the boat, no need to go through the cautious stages of priming, and you can run them while sailing at any angle of heel. You can have a complete novice to the boat come aboard and safely turn it on and off.
5)	The exhaust/intake vent on the Wallas is extremely well designed, and can be placed in a remote location (even just below the aft cap rail) avoiding any possible entanglement in lines, avoiding possible burning hands, etc. The only concern might be if a following sea could enter the exhaust, but careful placement can deal with that. And the idea of just flipping a switch and relying on a thermostat to maintain temperature is really nice. We had an Espar on a boat that we sailed for several years in British Columbia. In September it can be chilly in the morning. 

   I could nearly reach out of our bunk to start it going in the morning, and 10 minutes later, the cabin was toasty warm. I could have even put a timer on it, if it had been my own boat. When sailing on chilly days, I would let it run, and the forced hot air would blow up into the companionway and keep us warm in the cockpit. The only drawbacks, once installed, are the use of electricity and occasional maintenance of the fuel injector jet.

   As for propane heaters, they are even more scary, thanks to the very substantial danger of explosion. Getting propane is not as easy as some may think, when you are in remote parts. They are convenient and easy to light, and give off clean heat. They probably are a bit better designed than the diesel units. But the safety concerns and open flame, hot surface, etc., do pose problems that can't really be denied.

regards, Harvey									     January 2005
______________________________________________________________________________________

   The following excerpts were taken from an article written for the upcoming issue of DIY Boat Owner:
 
   With fuel-burning appliances, carbon monoxide (CO) is not the only threat to life. Oxygen depletion can kill too. Burning fuels consume oxygen and give off both carbon dioxide (CO2) and water vapor. In a small closed space like a boat’s cabin, the available oxygen can be consumed quite rapidly. Insufficient oxygen will cause the fuel to burn improperly and produce increasing amounts of CO in lieu of CO2. If adequate open ventilation is not maintained, the combination of oxygen depletion and CO buildup can be fatal. If the products of combustion are vented to the boat’s exterior, CO buildup is less likely. Oxygen depletion becomes the greater threat.
 
   When evaluating potential CO and/or oxygen depletion hazards that may be associated with fuel burning appliances, you need to ask three questions:
 
1. Is the appliance vented directly to the atmosphere outside the boat, or non-vented? ABYC standards require that all permanently installed fuel-burning cabin heaters, water heaters, and refrigerators be vented to the boat’s exterior via a smoke pipe or stack and cap designed to minimize back draft and prevent exhaust re-entry through other hull openings. Solid-fueled galley stoves, given their propensity to smoke, must also be vented. Liquid and gaseous-fueled stoves need not be. The requirement for venting is based largely on how a given appliance class is used. Cabin heaters, water heaters and refrigerators may operate frequently or for prolonged periods of time. Galley stoves are normally used intermittently for shorter periods. Hence the ABYC requirement for a warning label on, or immediately adjacent to, fuel-burning galley stoves: “Warning! Open flame cooking appliances consume oxygen and produce carbon monoxide. To avoid asphyxiation, or injury or death from carbon monoxide, maintain open ventilation when using these appliances. Do not use this appliance for comfort heating.”
 
2. Where does the air for combustion come from? In appliances with sealed combustion systems, incoming air, the combustion chamber itself, and outgoing combustion products are sealed from the boat’s interior. Manufacturers may use terms like “direct vent” or “balanced draft” when describing their appliances with sealed combustion systems. Fuel-burning appliances (other than galley stoves) on boats with gasoline engines must have sealed combustion systems.
 
   A non-sealed combustion system typically draws air from the space in which it’s located. Hence the ABYC requirement for a warning label on, or immediately adjacent to, non-sealed cabin heating units and systems: “Warning! Open flame heating appliances consume oxygen and produce carbon monoxide. To avoid asphyxiation, or injury or death from carbon monoxide, maintain open ventilation.” ABYC also requires appliances with non-sealed combustion systems (except those burning solid fuels) to be equipped with an oxygen depletion sensor (ODS) that will cut off the fuel supply to the burner if the ambient oxygen level falls below 95% of normal. In addition, boats with a non-sealed appliance must install a CO detection system.
 
3. Does the appliance require an operator for ignition, or is ignition automatic? The first is known as an attended appliance in ABYC-speak; the second as an unattended appliance. Attended appliances are normally installed in a boat’s accommodation (living) spaces and used when the occupants are present, e.g., galley stoves, tank-less (instantaneous) water heaters, and cabin heaters. Unattended appliances are designed to function without frequent attention by an operator, e.g., thermostatically controlled heating systems, water heaters, and refrigerators. ABYC requires that all unattended LPG and CNG appliances have sealed combustion systems. 
 
   Unfortunately, quite a few fuel-burning appliances in use on older boats are not ABYC-compliant. These are voluntary industry standards, after all, and they may not have been in effect when many of these appliances were built and installed. Does this mean you should replace a non-compliant appliance on your own boat, or avoid buying a boat with one installed? Not necessarily. But you do need to be aware that non-compliant appliances carry greater inherent risks. You need to be especially vigilant about maintaining adequate ventilation, and you should certainly install a CO detection system. Don’t leave a non-sealed combustion system burning when you go to sleep. Diesel cabin heaters and thermostatically controlled heating systems are a case in point. None, to my knowledge, are fitted with an oxygen depletion sensor; few have sealed combustion systems. Older propane-fueled refrigerators and tank-less water heaters, built primarily for the RV market, also lack sensors and sealed combustion systems. In recent years, manufacturers have begun to offer appliances with sealed combustion systems as standard or optional equipment. In some cases, sealed combustion systems can be retrofitted on older units.
 
   It’s easy to tell if an appliance has a sealed combustion system; look for air intake and exhaust pipes running to and from the combustion chamber. To determine if your propane appliance has an ODS, first consult your owners manual and then look at the unit itself.  The ODS system has three components: an oxygen-sensitive pilot burner, a thermocouple positioned in the pilot flame, and a “spring-loaded normally closed” safety shutoff solenoid valve. When a propane heater is operating in a cabin with a normal oxygen level (20.9%), the pilot flame is in contact with the ODS thermocouple, which in turn generates the millivoltage needed to hold the solenoid safety valve open. If the oxygen level in the cabin drops to about 18.5 or 18%, the pilot flame will move away from the thermocouple, causing it to cool to the point that it no longer generates the millivoltage needed to hold the safety valve open. When the safety valve closes, the gas supply to the burner is cut off and the appliance shuts down.
  
Sue Canfield		Aeolus/T37 #-305	Annapolis, MD			     January 2005
______________________________________________________________________________________

   I might be wrong, but I think the sealed combustion chamber that is fed by outside air is not just about reducing the effects of backdraft or downdraft.  I think it is an added protection against carbon monoxide released into the cabin, regardless of the malfunction that might cause such a release.  
 
   If your combustion chamber is fed by cabin air, then the cabin is open to carbon monoxide if the stove malfunctions.  
 
   Also, if you pull air from the outside for your combustion, you aren't using up the cabin air you have already heated and as the cabin air warms up without being sent up the chimney, the result is a very minor overpressure in the cabin that helps to negate cold drafts creeping in.  Even more efficient.
  
   Just some thoughts from someone who once spent cold nights in Alaskan cabin studying what made for a good heater.
 
Steve Wolfer										     January 2005
______________________________________________________________________________________

Sue,
    I hate to be a spoilsport, but I'm curious what the epidemiological data (i.e. evidence-based data) is concerning deaths d/t oxygen depletion in marine use. In other words, is this ABYC standard a rule that creates a need or that responds to one?
 
   While it is certainly the case that combustion uses oxygen, that volume of oxygen used has to be replaced by something. Either the cabin is sealed and that something is the CO and CO2 generated by the combustion, or it is air drawn in from some other source. (My father's saying is "nature abhors a vacuum"). 
 
   Since the Tayana is generally a well ventilated cabin, with its louvered companionway hatch and four dorades, I would think a sailor would have to go out of their way (i.e. block all these sources) in order to make the cabin sufficiently airtight that the draught of the heater would be overcome and products of combustion fill the area.
 
   In other words, I hear Chicken Little talking in all of this. In general I rankle at rules which are aimed at protecting ourselves from ourselves. Most sailors have more common sense than the turkey farms at large. Rather than get all upset over sealed combustion chambers, I suggest we simply say "use in ventilated space" and be done with it.
 
   As far as detection devices go, a CO detector is always a good idea. CO is not detectable by humans, and is deadly. Oxygen depletion is very detectable by humans; in a low-oxygen atmosphere you feel short of breath. It is identical with climbing to a high altitude (50% depletion = 18,000 ft altitude, quite uncomfortable but survivable for most of us). While an oxygen depletion cutoff is a good idea on a machine that doesn't get short of breath, in the absence of CO no one is going to fail to notice a lack of oxygen insidiously.
 
   If one was installing a new heater, and price was no option, then the "balanced draft heaters" would certainly be a good idea. But with this discussion thread you've got everyone worried that their existing heaters are going to kill them, and with proper use (i.e. adequate ventilation) it is hard to believe that is the case.  Just my two cents.
 
Charlie		s/v Kamaloha								     January 2005
______________________________________________________________________________________

   Another disadvantage (besides price) of the balanced draft heaters is that they don't dry out the boat. In other words, they do not exhaust the humid air from the inside, instead, they get fresh air from the outside, and the humidity stays in the boat.

Imants Golts										     January 2005
______________________________________________________________________________________
			
   I understood that heaters that draw air from outside still dry the inside.  If they were drawing inside air for combustion, they would cause a slight under-pressure inside which will pull air into the boat from the outside at whatever level of humidity that is.  
 
   I remember being told once that the big difference between heaters in term of "drying" thing out, was the fuel they burned - that combustion of some fuels released water molecules and other's didn't.  Unfortunately, I've now told you-all more than I know on this subject.
 
Steve Wolfer										     January 2005
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RE below:  My experience with heaters is that if you have a well ventilated space and you heat the air significantly, then the air will dry out (in a relative sense).  The reason for this is that as you draw cold air in and heat it, its relative humidity drops, and you are constantly venting any inside moisture to the outside.  If you seal the space, then the air will retain its humidity (because you are heating it less) and your body and cooking activities will add to that humidity.  If the burning fuel is not completely vented to the outside, then that will also add H2O to the air (along with CO2 and CO).  All liquid or gaseous fuels that I know of are hydrocarbons and will produce water when burned.  Some produce more than others.  Coal, charcoal or coke produce mostly CO2 and CO.

Dan Baker	Che Bella								     January 2005
______________________________________________________________________________________

Charles,
    I spoke to an expert named Sam Summers today regarding CO safety from a company called "Air Instrumentation". (See web link: www.tx-tafe.org/mc/page.do?sitePageId=1818 )   He just gave an interview to ABC TV on CO issues since they will be airing a piece on CO shortly.   He is an expert on the subject and holds training classes throughout the state for fire departments.  He said the current CO detectors on the market sold at places like Walmart, Lowes and Home Depot will probably not save your life including all the Kidde models.  They use a sensor that is not sensitive enough to trigger the alarm before experiencing CO levels which would cause a health issue and often false alarm since they are not discriminate for CO only.  He's selling me a product from this company: www.coexperts.com/.  He said it is one of the best on the market and his business is selling these to fire departments for residential calls on CO related issues.  Reading about the founders credentials (George Kerr) of the co-experts company indicates to me that he is a world authority on the subject.  The unit is a little more pricey at around $75 and is much more sensitive and is battery operated.  He also recommended either putting the unit in a freezer bag or taking it off the boat when leaving since humidity will shorten the lifespan of the CO sensor.  (See the marine section on the website above.  Very interesting story about CO levels at the stern of boats.)  I cant wait to see what my boat reads with the heater and/or engine running.
 
   After a lengthy conversation with Sam, he informed me that the chances of oxygen depletion on a boat are remote unless the boat was extremely sealed.  Even a small vent is enough to keep oxygen in the cabin.   Thus, he felt that having the CO detector and reasonable ventilation would be completely safe.  He did say that someone recently died in a small trailer in Texas which was completely sealed and running a kerosene heater.  There were also two other deaths in the state involving homes with improper heating equipment.  Additionally, CO poisoning symptoms are flu like and often misdiagnosed by healthcare professionals.
 
John Hovan	s/v Celtic Dream							     January 2005
______________________________________________________________________________________

John,
    CO detectors certified for marine use are not normally sold at Walmart, Lowes or Home Depot. The best place to start your search is at Underwriters Laboratories' website: www.ul.com/marine/ . After reading about their marine certification program, click on the Certification tab along the left margin. Then click on Keyword Search (under General Search) at the Online Certification Directory page. Type "marine carbon monoxide" in the search box. You'll find that only Xintex' models CMD IM 9V and CMD IMR 9V have been certified by UL for marine use.
  
Sue Canfield		Aeolus/T37 #-305		Annapolis, MD		     January 2005
______________________________________________________________________________________

Charlie,
    While there have been marine deaths due to oxygen depletion, you'll have to go to the USCG's boating accident database for the specific numbers. I do know that the number of deaths has been proportionately greater among RV campers and ice fishermen.
 
   Adequate ventilation is essential for safety when using an unvented fuel-burning appliance (like a galley stove) or a vented appliance that doesn't have a sealed combustion system. Unfortunately, boaters do some pretty dumb things -- like closing hatches, ports and even dorade vents to keep the cold air out.
 
   ABYC's safety standards are developed and updated by technical committees whose makeup includes boat builders and repairers, equipment manufacturers, marine surveyors, USCG representatives, members of the boating public, etc. While propane cabin heaters have been equipped with oxygen depletion sensors for more than 20 years, sealed combustion systems have only been readily available since 2001. The ABYC standard grandfathers fuel burning cabin heaters manufactured/installed before July 31, 2001. If I had an older heaters on my own boat, and was happy with its operation otherwise, I probably wouldn't replace it -- unless I was living aboard my boat in the Northeast or Pacific Northwest. I'd be very careful though about maintaining adequate ventilation.
 
   Unfortunately, oxygen depletion is often not detected until it's too late: 
www.trconsultinggroup.com/safety/nov2003.html. Since many boaters are completely unaware of the oxygen depletion and carbon monoxide hazards associated with fuel burning appliances, my article was written to help raise awareness to a more appropriate level.
 
Sue Canfield		Aeolus/T37 #-305	Annapolis, MD			     January 2005
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Sue,
    After reading your article, am I to assume that all propane fired stove's found on boats like the force 10's would be violating ABYC standards?  Mine doesn't draw air from the outside for cooking?    In fact, the gas stove in my house does not use external air.  I'm curious as to why they say "other than galley stoves".  These seem to operate on the same principals as the heater.
 
John Hovan										     January 2005
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John,
    Galley stoves (which are typically used for shorter periods than cabin heaters) are not required to be vented, to have sealed combustion systems, or to have an oxygen depletion sensor. To the best of my knowledge, all of Force 10's propane galley stoves are ABYC-compliant. Force 10's propane-fueled heaters are also ABYC-compliant because they have, among other features, an oxygen depletion sensor.
 
   On boats with diesel engines, cabin heaters can be ABYC-compliant if they have sealed combustion systems or an oxygen depletion sensor. However, due to the explosion hazard with gas-powered boats, ABYC requires that all fuel burning appliances (other than galley stoves) on these vessels have sealed combustion systems. The exception for galley stoves is made because they are "attended" appliances typically used only for short periods. ABYC does require a special warning placard near fuel burning galley stoves on gas-powered boats, i.e., "Warning! Gasoline vapors are explosive. Open flame appliances can ignite gasoline vapor causing death or injuries from fire or explosion. Turn off all open flame appliances when refueling."
 
 Sue Canfield		Aeolus/T37 #-305	Annapolis, MD			     January 2005
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John,
   This thread is leading in an interesting and different direction. I have often worried about the potential exposure to CO when motoring for long period of time with a slow wind on our stern. I often get slightly nauseous from the odor of diesel, but also wonder if I don't have a problem with potential Carbon Monoxide intoxication. The problem might even be worse for people down below, as the wind then blows the odors and the CO coming out the exhaust at the stern down the companionway. I have of thought that having the exhaust below the waterline, as on Hunter's, was sort of silly. But I now wonder if that might not be the safer compromise.  If the exhaust lets out below the waterline, it is less likely to be blown up to the cockpit, or down the companionway into 
the cabin, even with a following wind. The problem that I had always considered to be of concern on boats with exhaust below the waterline, is that you can't always determine if there is active water flowing out the exhaust, as well as the need for greater head pressure in teh exhaust.

   Look forward to hearing opinions about this from our members.

regards, Harvey									     January 2005
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Harvey,
    Fortunately CO levels associated with diesel exhaust are far lower than with gas exhaust. Consequently, the odor of diesel exhaust will normally prompt a boater to act before CO becomes a problem. ABYC requires a CO detector on all gas powered boats. A CO detector is only required on a diesel powered boat if it has an installed fuel burning cabin heater with a non-sealed combustion system.
 		 
Sue Canfield		Aeolus/T37 #-305	Annapolis, MD			     January 2005
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Sue,
   I'm just not hearing enough facts to convince me that running a diesel heater in a non-sealed mode is dangerous.  Additionally, I have to laugh that it is ok to run a stove with a warning label, but a diesel heater cannot be run in a non sealed mode.  I often run my oven for several hours since cooking times are nearly double household stoves.  I would believe that there are some scientific ways to determine oxygen depletion based on the BTU output of a device and size of space.  Thus, I would look to organizations such as ABYC to provide more supporting material for their rulings.  For example, I would think that oxygen depletion rate would be a function of the BTU output of a device.  Thus, very scientific testing can be done on oxygen depletion per a fixed cubic metric of cabin space.  If these tests were done, the boating community would know that burning a device at 12,000 BTU device for 6 hours in a sealed cabin size of x cubic feet would deplete x percent of the oxygen.  If lethal levels cannot even be reached in a 12 hour period, since one typically would depart the boat in that time period, the safety factor would only increase.
 
   Furthermore, I would be interested to hear more detailed statistics regarding deaths using combustion devices aboard a boat.  From my understanding, diesel heaters have been successfully used for years aboard boats for over 50 years in non sealed mode.   Were the deaths related to diesel heaters, running the stove as a heater, using a kerosene heater without venting, etc?
 
   I think we both agree that being aware of safety and taking reasonable steps to ensure safety are prudent and responsible.  But, quoting a bunch of ABYC rules that don't have supporting scientific or statistical basis doesn't hold a lot of water in my book.  Additionally, it has been my experience that many of these rules are up to interpretation of each individual surveyor as to how they read them.  
 
   Again, we both agree that safety is important on a boat.  I would just like to see more facts and statistics to support some of these "thou shall not do" rulings.  Can you provide any detail as to how the ABYC rulings were derived?  I would believe that there are discussion notes and supporting facts for these rulings.  One can wear a padded suit while riding a bicycle and some organization may say that is the standard for safety, but there is a feasibility factor which each person has to assess when thinking about what is reasonable safety. 
 
John Hovan										       January 2005
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And now for something completely different:
 
EPA classifies diesel fumes as probable carcinogen	
Reuters Health
Posting Date: September 4, 2002	
Last Updated: 2002-09-04 18:39:03 -0400 (Reuters Health)

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - In a report released on Tuesday, US environmental regulators for the first time formally classified diesel exhaust as a likely carcinogen.

Environmental groups are seizing on the new report from the Environmental Protection Agency as proof that the Bush administration needs to crack down on diesel fuel emissions. "This will underscore that diesel exhaust is a health hazard and should be controlled," said Frank O'Donnell at the Clean Air Trust, who called the report "the most in-depth health assessment to date" on diesel fumes.

Environmental groups are worried that the Bush administration will roll back clean air regulations for diesel fuel.

The EPA in early 2001 issued standards to reduce diesel emissions from trucks and buses by more than 90%. The administration said it backed those rules, but later said it might permit diesel engine makers to trade emission-reduction credits instead of producing cleaner trucks and buses. 

The EPA is considering similar clean diesel standards for construction and farm equipment.

In addition to concluding that diesel fumes probably cause lung cancer, the EPA found that diesel exhaust triggers asthma and other respiratory problems. The agency said its report is based on exposure from diesel engines built prior to the mid-1990s. As new diesel engines with cleaner exhaust emissions replace existing engines, the report's conclusions will have to be updated, it said. 

Tad McDonald									      January 2005
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John,
   I've been living aboard my CT37, up here in the Northwest, for five winters now. I have a Dickenson Pacific diesel stove that burns for a couple of months at a time between cleanings. I have a CO2 detector that gets tested frequently, for what that's worth, and it has never gone off. I'm still alive if that answers any questions.

Bill Laughlin		CT37 Falcon		Bellingham, WA			      January 2005
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Bill,
    I ran my heater for approximately 12 hours this weekend.  The low level co detector I purchased read zero carbon monoxide in the cabin.  It is my judgment after seeing the results that running these units does not create carbon monoxide in the cabin.  I didn't run the oven, so I can't comment on the Force 10 stove which does not exhaust outside the cabin.
 
John Hovan	s/v Celtic Dream							     January 2005
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Has anyone any experience with Zodi heaters?
 www.zodi.com 

Bill 		Port Hope. Canada							     January 2005
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Bill,
   I have no personal experience with Zodi heaters, but their design is not really suited for marine installation, e.g., they're unvented and don't appear to have an oxygen depletion sensor. However, they could be safely used in the cockpit or on deck when not sailing. If you're looking for a vented tankless water heater, try Dometic (www.dometic.com), Bosch www.boschappliances.com ) or Precision Temp (www.precisiontemp.com) -- the latter has an optional sealed combustion system that meets the ABYC standard for fuel-burning appliances.
 
Sue Canfield		Aeolus/T37 #-305	Annapolis, MD			     January 2005
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   Caframo makes a Peltier effect fan. It uses no external source of electricity. A Peltier module generates enough current to run the low torque fan. My son sent me one of the Caframo units, but I haven't had a chance to test it yet. If you put it on top of the heater, it serves to circulate the warm air coming off the heater.

regards, Harvey									     January 2005
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John-
   What is the noise level of your Hella fan? I've got two of them to install but haven't pushed them to the top of the "to-do" list.  A live-aboard friend told me he got rid of his Hellas because of the noise.

Sandra Blake		T37 Traveler	Hull #328	Herndon, VA			     January 2005
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Sandra,
   The Hella's I have seen seem to perform much better with a piece of bike inner tube inserted between the base and the bulkhead.  The only thing I hear is the wind blowing.  On low, they are extremely quiet and I sometimes have to look closely to see if they are running.

John Hovan										     January 2005
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Hi Sue,
   That’s what appealed to me about the Zodi, you could mount the combustion area outside the cabin and just heat the cabin with ducted hot air, thus eliminating all possibilities of CO/CO2 dangers.

   I still have reservations about using cabin air for combustion, even if the combustion chamber is vented.
 
Bill & Sue	T37 Wellantanzerin	  Port Hope, Canada				     January 2005
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Bill & Sue,
    I misunderstood; I thought you were looking at tankless water heaters not tent heaters. A Zodi tent heater could be used for the occasional weekend onboard in the winter, e.g., at anchor (some marinas do not allow open flame appliances to be used on deck). You'd have to ensure there was absolutely no way the heater could fall over (it looks top heavy in the website photo) and you'd have to extend the supplied hoses to carry the heat down low where you'd need it. However, these heaters are probably not built for continuous use and may have metal parts that are susceptible to corrosion in the marine environment.
 
   The ABYC standards apply only to "installed", not portable fuel-burning appliances.
  
Sue Canfield		Aeolus/T37 #-305	Annapolis, MD			      January 2005
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All,
   Does anyone have any experience with the cracker barrel 12-volt heating blanket? Looks like an interesting product.  Draws 4 amps at 12 volts, but has no heat control.

   Anyone try one of these on the boat in the winter?  Price is $29.  Saw it today in their store while eating lunch.

   Looks like a few more places sell the same or similar products...
www.roadtrucker.com/12-volt-heaters-blankets-sheets-1.htm  (looks like the same one as cracker barrel.)
http://store.yahoo.com/sports-imports/12volheathea.html
www.sportsimportsltd.com/12vohebl.html (This one draws around 7 amps).

John Hovan	s/v Celtic Dream	www.TayanaOwners.org				July 2005
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   This looks like a more sophisticated product.... www.kansaswindpower.net/bed_warmers.htm

John Hovan 											July 2005
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Hi John,
   Looks like a good idea for a cold night.  I haven't tried one of these but I will have to admit to cranking up the 110-volt electric blanket at anchor on occasion.  But just for 10 minutes to warm the bed up prior to jumping in. I don't have a heater so if it is really going to be cold (like freezing), I 
start the engine, crank up the electric blanket with the inverter (it didn't draw as much as I thought it would), and then shut everything down for the night.  I leave the engine room hatch open and that hot block keeps things warm for many hours.  But I may have to get one of these 12-volt blankets... 
Nice find!

Wayne Strausbaugh    V-42   C/C   RESTLESS	 					July 2005
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All,
   It appears that the radiant heat concept of a heated bed matting is more effective than a blanket.  I like the looks of the product sold by www.electrowarmth.com/. 

   The heat rises from under you and bounces off the blanket.   According to the web page, the blankets put hot air between the blanket and the ceiling given the laws of physics.  The radiant heat looks like the way to go.

   I'm going to call them today to see if folding one of these pads in a v-berth would cause issues with the electrical wires in the pad.  Looks like a great product.  Although I installed a diesel heater last winter, I hate to be cold!  These heating pads look like just the ticket to ensure warmth! And not too bad on the power draw.

John Hovan	s/v Celtic Dream								July 2005
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Nick:
   Oh boy! That was a good one. About a week before my main sailing vacation this year I figured I'd top off my tanks. Then an error made during the calibration of my new fuel sender resulted in my filling all the way to the deck. No big deal. A couple of squirts of dish detergent and the hose was enough to clean that up. Now I went down below and heard running water, or so I thought. A sound we are all tuned to recognize immediately. %$^&***** The diesel was pouring out of my Newport diesel heater, which I love by the way but that's one for another topic, over the starboard forward cushion covers. Like every installation design, it has to be considered under all conditions. I had not taken into account that the standing column of fuel in deck filler would reverse-pressurize the 1/4" copper return line to the heater control valve. Fortunately I have valves on every line and was able to shut the system down but not before I dumped the diesel onto my cushions.

   I drained the standing column of fuel out using the fuel filters then proceeded to remove the diesel out of the cushions via gravity before washing them repeatedly with hot water and dish soap. Then I tried clothes detergent. All to no avail - the cushions and lee cloth, even to my acetone, epoxy, antifouling, teak dust damaged male olfactory nerves still stank. Then I hit up on the EPA site and their idea worked a treat. In my opinion, the vanilla smells a little like diesel but much nicer. Hence the reason it masks so well.

   Even with my nose up against the cushion covers, 3-months later the cushions do not smell at all. Alternatively, perhaps I smell like diesel and therefore don't notice the smell any longer.

James Hambly										 November 2005
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   Anyone from the group have or are using a non-bulkhead heater?
 
   I have absolutely NO bulkhead space on my Ty37 to put a bulkhead heater as I have drop-down tables, nav tables, louvered doors that get in the way, etc. The prices of an Espar or Webasto (?) are 'extraordinary' and are based on the very same faulty principles of the gasoline-fired Volkswagen heaters from the 70s that (always) leaked toxic gases into the interiors of those cars, etc. 
 
   Anyone have a solution?

 Rich Hampel										September 2006
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Rich
   You might want to look at Eberspacher (also known as Espar in the U.S.) diesel heaters, they're designed for trucks. I've got one on my narrow boat that runs radiators, or they do a hot air unit. My unit is smaller than a brief case and is tucked away in the engine compartment.

www.eberspacher.com/marine1.php?section=marine

Brian Mills										September 2006
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    If you are buying a “heat pump” type air conditioning system, be sure to opt for the heat option (reverse cycle).  It adds heat for only 5 to 10% extra in price.  Size doesn’t increase at all. A reversing valve just runs the Freon through backwards. 

    Water temps are the deciding factor on whether a heat pump will get you through the winter.  These units typically put out 100% of their rated output in 58 degree water with less efficiency as the water gets colder.  On the east coast, these “heat pump” systems should work through the winter anywhere from Norfolk, VA, on south.  In 15 years of wintering in North Carolina, I have only seen 14 days or less when the water temp went below 38 degrees.  At that temp and below, the water quickly “flashes” to ice as the heat is removed during the “heat pump” cycle.  The unit shuts down automatically.  A 16,000 BTU unit keeps my V-42 warm with no more than a 50% duty cycle when water temps are between the more normal 42 to 45 degrees.  When the air temp goes into the teens, an auxiliary Ceramic heater can help.

   The fan for the central air system is key to dry, even heat throughout the boat.  Even when water temps are too low to run the unit, the fan can be used with a couple of Ceramic heaters near the air return to achieve a comfortable cabin temperature.  This is especially nice when hauled out.

    On my center cockpit boat, one unit installed over the engine room handles the entire boat.  All vents are at or aft of the companionway ladder.  A vent in the shower makes showering aboard a delight.  The forward cabin gets its heat/air using a simple cabin fan to help circulate the air.

   Manual and digital controls are usually offered.  Digital controls are a must for the following reasons:

1) Almost all units can be set to provide air conditioning in the daytime and automatically switch to heat at night if the temp goes 4 degrees below set point.  

2)  A dehumidifying cycle can be set to turn on the A/C periodically to dehumidify the air irregardless of temperature.

3)  Startup loads are lowered with the fan and water pump activation delayed in sequence until the momentary compressor startup load is complete.

4) Electrical power interruptions are better handled with the unit shutting down automatically for a couple minutes while head pressures bleeds off.  Without it, the system will try to restart with high head pressures and may trip the circuit breaker. 

    Reliability is excellent with almost no maintenance except for the water pump filter and an annual cleaning of the water tubes with Muriatic acid.  My first Marine Air system went 16 years before the compressor began to fail.  It was left on 24/7 except while cruising.  

   So what do you do underway or at anchor if you don’t have a generator?  Having spent 6 summers cruising Maine, I have felt no need for a diesel heater even with evening temperatures in the 50’s and a 56 degree average water temp.  But note that my hull is cored above the waterline and that may make a difference.  I have to charge batteries anyway so I start the engine twice a day and then use the hot engine block through an open engineroom hatch to heat the boat.  Plus I use the stove twice a day (coffee in the morning and the oven for a half hour in the evening).  Underway, I have a splice in my engineroom blower exhaust hose and I just vent it right into the boat when needed.  A carbon monoxide detector is a necessity if you do this.

Wayne Strausbaugh	 V-42	 CC	RESTLESS			         	 	      October 2006
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