Sailnet Tayana List
The following are messages from the Sailnet Tayana-list covering over 6 years of discussion about engines, engine problems, suitability when installed in heavy boats, and engine/prop combinations. The predominant engine is the Perkins 4-108 with limited discussions about Yanmars.
The problem with engine RPM/boat speed/prop pitch comparisons is that it is mostly anecdotal information. The following factors must be considered:
A) Adding a larger alternator changes the pulley size to one with a lesser diameter. RPM’s will indicate 300 to 600 RPM too high. Most Perkins tachometers are not adjustable for these changes. Therefore a boat with the original Perkins tach and a larger alternator will not have accurate RPM readout.
B) Different brand propellers with the same pitch can give dramatically different performances. Prop brand and model is important. The original Tayana propellers do not compare well to an identically sized Michigan propeller.
C) Boat speed instruments may have a slightly fouled impeller or not be calibrated accurately. Currents can confuse GPS Speed-over-ground readings unless two-way runs are done.
D) Finally, any speed comparison is only a snapshot of the boat’s bottom fouling conditions on any particular day. Only within the first week after a bottom painting can this factor be discounted.
Here, and also in the archive article “Props (from Tayana List).doc”, are lots of information on prop pitch versus boat speed. Most of it is confusing when trying to make comparisons among boats of the same type. In order to enhance comparisons, Tayana owners are asked to provide updated or new data by filling in the chart below and then sending it to email@example.com.
& drive ratio
Pitch & Brand
Tach & Speed
Clean or ?
Now, the E-mails:
Just to add to the confusion. Que Tal is a
T-37 with a Perkins 4-108 and a Borg Warner transmission with a 1.91 to 1
reduction ratio. Prop is 18" by 9 pitch.
It pushes Que Tal at about 6 knots at 3500 rpm. Red line is 4100. The
formula used by the two prop shops I contacted when shopping for a replacement
(the old prop was cracked) suggested a 16 x 10. When I told them the old one
was 18 x 9 they thought that was in the ballpark and that I should stick with
it if I liked it. The engine shop recommended against over propping in order to
keep the RPM’s down because you don't get the full horsepower out of the engine
if you do. Que Tal does rev up to the red line, but I only get a couple of
additional 10s of a knot. In fact, I think the engine is most efficient at
between 2500 and 3000.
Kent Lewis S/V Que Tal T-37 #165 April 1999
(According to the Perkins 4-108 manual, the engine has a maximum RPM in displacement pleasure boat installations of 3600 RPM. Max cruise is listed as 3000 RPM. The above RPM’s seem high and are probably the result of a new alternator with a smaller pulley – Wayne Strausbaugh, 2005)
Kent and others who responded:
Thanks! Since I started this thread I've been reading it with great interest. I have to admit that I am a little confused, but I guess the old saying "What ever floats (propels) your boat" may apply here. I've tallied up the responses so far and added a few from marine surveys of other Tayana's:
- Yanmar 3qm30 and came with an 18 right hand 13 prop on a 1 1/4 inch shaft.
- With a Volvo MD3B 36HP, I motor easily 6 to 6.5knots.
1600 to 1800 RPM with a 3 blade Bronze marked Alco 510V 16 X 12:
- T37 with a 4-108. According to my survey the shaft is 1 1/4" and the Prop is 17RH11, 3 blade.
switched to Autoprop):
- Que Tal is a T-37 with a 4108 and a Borg Warner transmission with a 1.91 reduction ratio. Prop is 18" by 9 pitch. It pushes Que Tal at about 6 knots at 3500 rpm. Red line is 4100.
- Sparhawk had a 18 x 12 x1 1/4 RH with Yanmar 3QM30
- From Survey of T-37 thanks to Jim Guin in Florida: Perkins 4-108, 17 x 11 RH
- Nautical Weaver has a Perkins 4-108, Borg Warner 1.9:1, and a 18 x 8 x 1 1/4 RH (re pitched from 18 x 10?) Why, I'm not sure other than he said it was sluggish.
I have two more questions just to make sure I understand over propping. It means a bigger prop and/or more pitch. Right? And more pitch means you will move the boat further at the same RPM, which translates to more speed at a lower RPM. Right? Which means you may not reach max RPM before you hit hull speed. Right?
Bottom line is I'm not really any closer to deciding on what prop I should get. Except I know I don't what an Autoprop (no offense). Maybe I'll take the advice of Patrick Boulter of Barnacle Boulter's in Little River SC and stop by there on the way up the coast to let him put the boat and prop to the test. Thanks for everyone's input.
Ray Slaninka S/V The Lorna Doone April 1999
Interesting discussions but I think that transmission drive ratio's are needed as well as engines to make comparisons. I have a V-42 with a Perkins 4-108 and a Hurth 150 transmission running a 1.95:1 drive ratio. I repitched the original prop four times, tried a prop of a different brand and have finally changed to an Autoprop. What I have learned probably applies to all heavy cruising boats:
The original factory prop was 18X10 and gave a max speed of 6.3 to 6.5 Kts. Cruise speed was 5.8 at around 2000 RPM. I repitched it 3 times from 18X10 to 17 1/2X11 (no change in performance), 17X12 (picked up a few tenths of a knot and lost a bit of "thrust" at low speed), & finally 16X13. The smaller prop is a "speed" prop. That is, it is optimized for speed in calm water. Speed went to 5.8 at 1800 RPM with about 6.3 Kts at 2000. Top speed was 7.6 Kts but the engine would immediately start to increase engine water temp. Seven knots was sustainable at 2300 RPM. Low-end thrust suffered greatly with the small prop. Acceleration was cut in half and the boat had a hard time maintaining speed with any wave action on the bow. Moderate pitching (3 to 5 feet) resulted in 4 knots or less. But the boat cruised well in the ICW. The bottom line here is that a smaller prop with more pitch equals better speed but less thrust. I tried another brand of 3-blade prop (maybe a Michigan?) with a pitch of 16X13 but it had a slightly different shaping of the blades and the engine could hardly pull 2000 RPM. It was lugging severely. I repitched it to 16X12 and it was satisfactory but never equaled the performance of the Taiwan prop. The Tayana prop had wider and thicker blades.
Then I got an Autoprop. The Autoprop was easy to install on a V-42. It is a 18 1/4 inch prop. I simply dove under the boat, placed it on the shaft and tightened the nut. Speeds are now 6.3 at 1800 and 6.6 at 2000 RPM. The engine only has to produce 75 to 80% of it's previous horsepower to achieve RPM and fuel savings are at least 20%. The engine never labors. Max RPM is 3600 when stopped and 2800 at 7 knots. Top speed is 7.8 knots but it still runs warm when exceeding hull speed. Thrust and acceleration are better than any previous prop I have tried. Using almost full speed in reverse, the boat has stopped in 50 feet from 5 1/2 knots! Head seas are no longer a problem. Any loss of speed from pitching immediately results in the prop repitching and speed being recovered quickly. Lots of thrust is available when needed. But the biggest test was when I took another V-42 in tow and made 5.8 knots at 2300 RPM with only a 5-degree rise in engine temp (on a 95-degree day in warm water!). Yeah, with TWO V-42’s! The Autoprop is both a "speed" prop and a "power" or "high thrust" prop. It is reportedly considerably faster than a MaxProp. It is also expensive. But if an owner thinks that his boat requires a larger engine and would also appreciate a 20% increase in fuel range, this type of prop could prove to be a reasonable and money-saving alternative.
Wayne Strausbaugh V-42 C/C RESTLESS April 1999
Note: check the Tayana-list Archives, "Props.rtf or htm", for a detailed discussion of prop pitch-versus-speed. Messages concerning that subject will only be repeated here when other engine information/issues are included.
Last week I had to replace the fresh water coolant pump on my Perkins 4-108 so I started looking for a parts source with a reasonable price. I found two:
Trans-Atlantic Diesel, White Marsh, VA, (804) 642-9296
Coastal Diesel, New Bern, NC, (800) 682-8809 or (252) 633-2025
They both quoted around $98 for a new pump (part # ) but Trans-Atlantic Diesel had rebuilt ones for $57. I didn't think anything on a Perkins cost under $100 so was rather pleased. Now, I didn't look further so I'll just throw these prices up on the "list" for comparison. If anyone has a better source, please let me know. If we all compare prices, maybe we may locate a really good dealer. I don't mind mail order. It's about as fast as ordering locally anyway.
One thing I did find was that Trans-Atlantic Diesel rebuilt Perkins engines as a specialty and had ten rebuilt 4-108 engines in stock at $5500 each. A short-block overhaul is $3400. They indicated that they always used new marine add-on parts such as heat exchangers and pumps plus they supplied new starters. Sounded like a good source to me. They said they buy direct from England on some items like the Bowman heat exchanger found on the "New 4-108M" (that's what the manual calls my 1982 Perkins). It lists at $2000 and they sell it for $1250. I tried Coastal Diesel to check this out and they quoted $2000 list and $1811 at discount. It's obvious that direct purchase can save big bucks.
Wayne Strausbaugh V-42 C/C RESTLESS May 1999
Subject: Bleeding the Fuel System on a Perkins 4-108
A Caution on invalid bleeding procedures in the Perkins manual:
Watch out for the owners manual on older Perkins engines where it recommends placing a piece of cardboard over the air intake while cranking the engine to start it after bleeding. They wrote the manual prior to the wide spread use of water-lift mufflers. After a minute or two, the water-lift muffler will fill up and then the water overflows into the cylinders. Been there - done that! The engine gets a hydraulic lock and it is tough to get the water out. It won't turn over. If you catch it right away - no problem. Didn't hurt my engine. If you must crank it over for longer than 30 seconds, open the drain on the water-lift muffler and then try again. I wrote Perkins and they actually changed the later manuals...
Also, a mechanic showed me a trick on how to change the final fuel filter on a Perkins without bleeding the engine. Back off the fitting at the final fuel filter on the output side to the engine and pump the filter full. Hold a rag over the fitting to catch the fuel. Then start the engine, still holding the rag over the fitting to catch the fuel that comes out. When it stops spitting air, tighten the fitting. Messy, probably not a recommended procedure, but it works. It also helps to have a shutoff valve in the fuel lines on the output side of the RACOR so you can change that filter without draining back the fuel upstream of it.
Wayne Strausbaugh V-42 C/C RESTLESS August 1999
Just an incidental comment ..... If your engine is not spinning near the top rpm due to a too large of pitch or diameter, the engine will not be able to develop sufficient horsepower; hence, poor performance and low boat speed. Check with the engine manual for "max" rpm and compare that with your actual "under load" rpm. (A diesel that is not operating near max rpm at full load is subject to extreme cylinder pressure causing premature wear, blown head gaskets, etc.) If there is a great difference, consider a less pitched prop or have it re-worked. :-)
Rich Hampel - still a Tayana (MKII) Wannabe. September 1999
Subject: Engine lift & removal on a center cockpit V-42
I have a newly acquired '82 V-42 still on the hard in Superior WI. I am in the process of a large-scale refinish and refit, including an engine overhaul. One of the worst things that some sailboats can have is a previous owner.
I have the engine now setting on the sole of the main cabin, ready to lift out of the companionway. I decided not to try to remove the cockpit sole because of difficulty removing the partition panels in the head area. On my boat these panels have been tiled and are impossible to remove. I elected to lift the engine, move it over and set it down on the passageway sole and remove the manifold, transmission, bell housing, flywheel and back plate. All this stuff has to be removed for overhaul anyway. It was then skinny enough to go through the passage doorway. A friend and I did this just yesterday but did not have time to actually lift it out onto the deck. Next weekend for sure. The lifting and moving gantry I made myself of welded rectangular steel tubing and a boat trailer winch. I was very pleased with the way it worked.
Anyway, I do need to do something about a prop and have almost convinced myself to spend the money for a real one. I look forward with a lot of trepidation to maneuvering this ship in tight quarters and having next to no experience in handling such a vessel I will need all the help I can get. Aside from the performance under way, I think the Auto is called for.
Thanks and fair winds, Merv October 1999
Concerning the advice that a diesel should turn near max RPM, I would like to add some reservations to that.
1) RPM range is dictated primarily by the transmission drive ratio. Some boats have 2:1 ratios like the Hurth transmission and others have basically 3:1 ratios. The first will run much lower RPM’s at cruise speeds (1800 to 2200 RPM) while the second is designed for RPM’s about 500 higher at cruise.
2) A boat with a 2:1 transmission ratio should
never achieve max RPM or anywhere near it. As an example, I have a V-42 with a
Perkins 4-108, a
3) The Autoprop is computer designed for each boat based on horsepower, transmission drive ratio, hull design, and displacement. Mine does everything it is supposed to do and appears properly sized. It will only turn 2600 RPM at my max speed of 7.8 knots at full power. When the boat is stopped, it will turn 3600 RPM since it uses a much lower pitch when it senses horsepower applied but no water flowing over the prop. These RPM’s reflect pretty close to optimum conditions for this engine/transmission combination and should apply to a T-37 as well.
Wayne Strausbaugh V-42 C/C RESTLESS October 1999
I must respectively disagree. An engine produces its maximum horsepower at a given RPM (and its max torque at a given, though usually different, RPM). If the engine can't reach that RPM, then you will not get maximum power. In order to allow an engine to reach its max RPM, and thus assure it being able to reach its max power, the transmission ratios and the prop must be properly balanced with respect to each other and the engine.
Given that all three (engine, transmission and prop) are important, and given that of the three, the prop is by far the easiest and cheapest to replace, it is usually the one that gets swapped around to try to achieve max RPM.
The mere fact that a boat will reach its theoretical hull speed at a low RPM in most situations does not mean that the prop is properly sized and pitched. In fact, it probably means that it is either too large or too radically pitched which would result in it bogging the engine down at higher RPM’s. The real test is will the engine be able to develop its full HP in severe conditions when it is being asked to punch thru big waves and/or high winds.
I have also had mechanics tell me that routinely lugging an engine is harmful. Lugging occurs when it is maxed out under the load it is being ask to carry such that it cannot rev higher. Allowing it to reach its max RPM will assure that it can get to the peak of the power curve.
For those reasons, put me down in the max RPM camp.
Kent S/V Que Tal T-37 October 1999
Bruce, Kent and Wayne,
Is the max power output at a defined RPM also the most efficient level of operation of the Perkins or Yanmar engines? The other issue that I would find helpful in following this discussion would be and efficiency curve of power utilization to speed through the water with different props, but somehow corrected for transmission. (And with a relatively constant loading of displacement). What is RPM for the max power output of the Perkins 4-108? Is it advisable to run it at that level for all day runs? I would assume that with higher speeds (?closer to "hull speed"?), the energy input required increase non-linearly, due to frictional forces, hull resistance, prop inefficiency at higher RPM’s, etc.
The point about not lugging an engine is something that I have also been taught since I was a boy. But what is that point in RPM relative to load. Is it a measure of how much the engine RPM is retarded in percentage when a given load is imposed on it? How does that relate to the optimal idling speed? On the Perkins, I find that it sets to a smooth idle at about 900 RPM. When in gear, I find that about 1,000 RPM is the point at which the engine doesn't increase vibration but allows me to motor slowly in the anchorage. But what factors should I be attending to?
You darned scientists make everything so complicated.
I've never actually seen the power curve for a 4108, but the good people an Admiralty Marine told me it peaked at about 3500 RPM. I have no idea if that is the most efficient engine speed in terms of miles per gallon, but I suspect that that a lot of other variables enter in to it. As you mentioned earlier, things like load, how smooth the bottom is, and sea state will effect it. I suspect each of us is going to have to find out by trial and error on own boats. Given all those variables, I'm not sure how valuable a generalized efficiency curve would be, even if one exists.
As for running it all day at the top of the power curve (not max RPM) , that should be no problem, assuming a basically sound engine and drive train. Diesels like to work. The problem is can the crew stand the noise. Sailors want to hear the wind in the rigging, not an engine and these 37s are not exactly sound proofed.
I assume your assumption about the non-linearairity (is that a word?) of energy output is correct.
My seat of the pants approach is to find a speed where both the engine and I feel comfortable. This summer, plowing dead into the wind and waves, the engine and I settled on about 2500 RPM. Coming back two weeks later in a dead calm 2800 seemed about right. In that case fuel efficiency was greater coming back, but we also had the current with us so I don't put too much stock in that fact.
A poor answer to your question. Maybe someone else can do better.
Kent Lewis S/V Que Tal T-37 #165 October 1999
Agree completely with Wayne (? - you must be agreeing with
Thou shalt not have an engine with excessive combustion chamber pressure ... for very long!
Rx: spin the engine between 80% and 90% of max rated rpm. This has been the engineering "rule-of-thumb" for almost all reciprocating engines for almost 100 years. :-)
Rich Hampel October 1999
I'm not sure we disagree and I'm sorry if my answer was not clear. I did not mean to suggest that you should routinely run at max RPM. The point I was trying to make is that you should be able to run at max power.
If by "spin the engine between 80% and 90% of max rated rpm" you mean that is about as fast as you want to run it for any extended length of time, I would agree. But that is contingent on not lugging it at that speed. By using a prop that will permit the engine to reach it's max RPM, you allow it to easily reach the magic 80 - 90% without lugging. Sizing the prop so it can only get to the lower RPM, even at full throttle, is by definition lugging it with all the bad consequences you describe.
According to the local Perkins repair shop the max RPM for the 4-108 is 4100. 80-90% of that is 3280 - 3690. Since the peak of the power curve is about 3500, sizing the prop to allow the engine to reach max RPM means you can easily and safely run at it's highest power output without lugging it.
Kent S/V Que Tal October 1999
Does anyone have the max rated RPM for the Yanmar 3QM?
It has taken awhile but I finally got a chance to check my service manual. The continuous rating output is 30 HP / 2600 RPM. The one hour rating is 33 HP / 2800 RPM. Hope this helps.
Bruce October 1999
Well, we have an interesting discussion going here on engine RPM's and props. But let’s look at some technical data on the Perkins 4-108 rather than have to rely on the local mechanic. From a performance chart for the 4-108:
Max torque 78 lbf. ft. (lbf. ft is how Perkins labels it - foot pounds?) at 2300 RPM.
Torque at other RPM's:
1600 – 71
1800 – 75
2000 – 76
2200 - 77.5
2600 – 77
3000 – 74
3600 – 69
Notice that the 1800 to 2200 RPM range used by most boats with a 2:1 transmission ratio is within 3 lbf. ft. of maximum torque.
Max RPM in displacement pleasure boat installation: 3600 RPM.
Max cruise RPM: 3000 RPM.
Net shaft horsepower is 47 at 4000 RPM and 45 1/2 at 3600.
The Perkins performance chart and the Perkins advertisement sheet that it came from are now posted on the FTP site as well as below.
Back to the discussion. I still disagree with the statement that "a boat does not have the optimum prop setup if it cannot reach max RPM at full power". I have never seen an engine with a fixed, 3-bladed prop that would even come close to 3600 RPM with a 2:1 transmission ratio. Not that I have seen that many, but I really have asked this specific question of owners of boats of various kinds. Note the response from Willi Robles. He gets 3150 RPM out of the 3400 max RPM allowed on his engine with a 3:1 transmission. This is pretty much what I would expect from that transmission ratio. I do believe that if a V-42 or T-37 can cruise between 1800 and 2100 RPM and get 6.5 Kts then this is pretty much "as good as gets". This would mean 7 to 7 1/2 Kts at full power (2600 to 2800 RPM's) although I would expect increased engine temps when trying to sustain over 7 Kts. Sure it would be nice to have a prop that would allow the engine to rev throughout the complete power range of the engine. But unless you have an Autoprop, I don't think that this is realistically achievable. The compromise is the prop/ engine/ transmission setup selected by the engineers at Tayana. For those who want to run in the higher RPM range, a 3:1 transmission and matching prop should fill the bill. But let’s collect some more data... If anyone with a 2:1 transmission ratio can achieve anywhere close to 3600 RPM with their engine, please give us the details and your opinion of whether your boat is optimized as far as the prop goes.
Wayne Strausbaugh V-42 C/C RESTLESS October 1999
(Go to ftp://tognews.com/Perkins_4-108_PerformanceSpecs and check the files on specifications and performance curves of the Perkins 4-108)
Having the correct pitch allows the engine cylinder pressure to be a minimum relative value for the horsepower developed.
For instance (as extreme examples), if too low a pitch: lower rpm developed; hence lower horsepower.... and extremely high cylinder pressure ('lugging' ) , blown head gaskets, bent piston connecting rods, hammered main shaft bearings, excessive engine wear, etc.
If too high a pitch: cavitating/eroding prop , scored cylinder walls, 'hammered' injectors and valve seats, excessive engine wear.
Most 'steady state' reciprocating engines 'like' to be run (long term) at near 75% of max developed horsepower and at the 75% peak of their 'power curve'.
I like to select pitch so that I get 75% optimum rpm/horsepower output at the rated hull speed of the boat. Ever since Drs. Otto and Diesel invented their engines, the value for long life vs.maximum output has been around 75% rpm/horsepower output.
Look at the power curve 'optimum' value in your engine manual, match/record/correct that value near the hull speed of the boat and you optimize the whole system for economy, reliability, long life, and extra power 'bursts' when you need it. For me its like religion, politics, taking risks, etc.; ... I like to be in the 'middle'.
The auto-prop tends to automatically adjust for the 'optimum' all along the engine power curve. (I just think they are outrageously expensive, as I can almost do a whole engine rebuild for the price of an auto-prop.)
The factory told me that if the pitch did not allow close to full rpm, it was overloading the engine, which could have negative implications over time. Did I read your comment right? Is there a difference in these two approaches?
David / Hegira March 2000
Yes, you have it right......... ! If you were underpitched, you would never reach full rpm.
Rich Hampel T-37 March 2000
My Perkins has used a quart of oil every 12 to 16 hours since new in 1982. The engine has run perfectly for over 6000 hours. I just keep it full, change it every 100 hours and don't worry about it.
Wayne Strausbaugh V-42 C/C RESTLESS July 2000
I had the cylinders of my Perkins fill up with water once with the exact same symptoms. Like you (Rich Hampel), I caught it right away. To get the water out, I drained the waterlift muffler, then "rocked" the engine back and forth with a large socket wrench on the huge bolt of the lower engine pulley. This opened and closed the exhaust valve a tiny bit each time. I then started the engine, heated the oil, changed the oil twice more (running it for a half-hour each time), and everything was fine for the last 3000 hours of engine time. But consider doing an oil analysis after the final oil change to ensure that no water is present. I now have an oil analysis done every 100 hours!
To remove water, pulling the injectors is probably a better idea but if something keeps you from starting the engine within an hour or two of ingesting water, you might incur damage. Reinstalling an injector can be intimidating and can cause further problems since bleeding is required on some engines. Plus, sometimes a new copper washer is required to seal the injector. Do you carry spares? I didn't...
Rather than turn off the water intake, I prefer to drain the waterlift muffler after every 30 seconds of starting if there is a starting problem. Mine has an easily accessible plug. If you want a useful project, drain your waterlift and then measure the water. Try to figure out how much more would be needed to cause a potential backflow problem. Then crank the engine for 30 seconds (with the waterlift empty and the shutdown switch pulled) to see how much water goes in the muffler. Measure again. Then you would know about how long you could crank the starter without having another backflow problem.
Another hint to those who own engines without a decompression lever. You can put a piece of stiff cardboard over the air intake if you are cranking the engine with the starter. But once again, not too long...
Wayne Strausbaugh V-42 C/C RESTLESS September 2000
The Perkins engine Performance Chart and Specifications Sheet follow:
I placed an electric fuel pump prior to my double set of RACOR filters. It seems to work fine. I was having the problem of getting some air into the filters and could not locate the source after extensive troubleshooting. I did find out that you can run the engine just fine with the RACOR 500 filter having 1-inch of air in the top but I don't want to do that again...
I installed extensive valves around the fuel pump so I can:
1) Run the engine with an electric fuel pump
2) Run the engine without an electric fuel pump
3) Transfer fuel through either filter to any of my 3 tanks (fuel polishing)
4) Use the fuel pump to top off the RACOR's during filter changes
5) Use the fuel pump to top off the RACOR's if any air enters the system
The system is pretty complicated and even I have to reference notes every time I switch valving to ensure I set all the valves correctly. The pump precludes the normal use of the RACOR-mounted vacuum gauges to monitor filter condition unless I secure the pump for a reading.
Wayne Strausbaugh V-42 C/C RESTLESS July 2000
Update 2005: A hole in the diaphragm of the engine-driven, fuel lift pump resulted in some minor dilution of the engine oil with diesel. The hole was very small. A mechanic cautioned me about running an electric fuel pump with an engine designed for manual fuel feed. I have not used the electric fuel pump again except for fuel polishing and filling the RACOR filters.
I found a couple of sources for heat
exchangers. One name I got from Harvey, Harpur Marine in
Ray Slaninka July 2000
Subject: RPM accuracy
There may be yet another thing worth checking if it is fine at "lower RPM" but not at higher. Are you sure about the accuracy of your Tachometer? If you changed the alternator, it may not have the same pulley diameter as the original alternator. The Tachometer on the Perkins Diesel operates off the alternator. After replacing our alternator, but also doing a number of other repairs (replacing engine mounts, flexible coupling, alignment, etc.) I noticed that the engine seemed much more efficient. I now would find that our speed was much higher at a lower RPM. Or so I thought!
I borrowed a flash gun tachometer. It measures the true RPM of the engine by placing a small piece of reflective tape on the main pulley of the drive shaft, and a flash gun, linked to a VOM used to measure true RPM. I discovered that our engine was actually running a full 20% higher RPM’s than indicated on our tachometer. Thus, rather than the reading of 2,000, it was actually going at 2,400 RPM. 3,000 was actually 3,600 RPM. This may contribute to overheating. What prop are you running?
You certainly touched on a good point when you mentioned tach accuracy. Anytime an alternator is replaced, there is a good possibility that the new pulley is a slightly different diameter. This really plays havoc with accurate RPM readings on a Perkins. I used a mechanical tach right off the crankshaft pulley to calibrate mine. I also had to replace the original Perkins-supplied tachometer since it had no provision for calibration.
The cruising RPM for your Perkins is strictly dependent on your transmission ratio. In general, 2:1 ratio's seem to run best between 1800 to 2200 RPM with a properly sized prop. That RPM range will increase with a 3:1 ratio. Also, the prop size and pitch will usually be quite different with a 3:1 ratio. One of the more common discussions I've heard while cruising, is the happy-hour, marina comparison of prop size/ pitch/ engine-to-cruising speed and RPM. I remember hearing that "the engine must be able to reach 3000 RPM underway" and/or "the engine must be able to reach max RPM underway or the prop is pitched wrong". I have repitched the prop 3 or 4 times and changed props 3 times trying to make that happen. I have had my boat "overpropped" and "under-propped". I finally figured out from a mechanic that Tayana got it pretty close from the factory and that my Perkins is specifically designed and rated for the 2:1 transmission that it came with. I use 1800 to 2200 RPM as a good trade off for speed versus reasonable fuel efficiency.
The performance chart that I posted is only accurate for a Perkins 4-108 with a Hurth transmission running slightly less than the 2:1 ratio. That is why you can see the engine developing max torque in the 2000 to 2400 RPM range. That also explains the 3000-RPM max cruise RPM. A Perkins with a 3:1 transmission ratio may have an entirely different torque curve and RPM restrictions.
Wayne V-42 C/C RESTLESS April 2001
I had the same problem with a V-42 and a 4-108. I did everything I could with the water system, heat exchanger, prop pitch (16 inches fixed, changed it from 11 to 10 and then to 12 to see what difference it would make), etc and got the same result - couldn't go over 2200 rpm without overheating and at that RPM could barely get 6 knots and much less than that with any kind of head wind. I talked to one guy who bought a second heat exchanger and installed it in parallel with the first and that solved his problem. But I came to the same conclusion as Bill - a fifty horse motor is not enough especially one that develops its fifty horses at almost 4000 RPM. Its too noisy and vibratey at anything near that speed and it seems as if it would wear out quicker because it has to run at such high revs. At the 22-2400 RPM range we have been talking about that engine only is putting out about 30 horses. So I changed out the engine (in process) to a Perkins-Sabre M65 (same footprint) which develops 65 horses at 2400 RPM. This will allow me to run a serious alternator (250 amp) at very low RPM as well as develop enough horses at lower RPM to push the boat along at something approaching hull speed using a bigger prop. I'll let you know the results.
John B. Van Zwieten July 2002
Prudence, my T37, hull #15, with a Perkins 4-108 pushes her along at about 7 knots with about 1800 RPM. As a matter of fact, the previous owners refused to bring her up to anything beyond 2000 RPM. Seems like a moot point since she travels at hull speed at 1800. Any ideas? BTW, I don't have any problems with overheating or oil pressure, etc. All needle readings nominal.
My question is: What is your normal experience with MAX RPM’s on a 4-108?
John Kalpus Prudence T37 San Diego July 2002
On our Tayana-42 we have a newly rebuilt Perkins 4-108 and a new prop. Currently we are able to do about 6.6 knots at 2500 to 2600 RPM's. Any higher RPM's and we overheat. Running at 2300 RPM's the engine runs quite cool and we do about 5.5 to 6 knots.
Now the question: What cruising speed are others getting out of their Tayana-42 and at what RPM? The rebuild shop said we should be able to run the engine up to 3000 RPM or so without overheating and that a change in pitch on the prop would accomplish that. Others have said that we should be able to cruise at 7+ knots. I would appreciate it if anyone with a similar boat and engine would contact me with their experiences and prop size, etc.
Mark Handley S/V Windbird September 2002
Welcome to the conundrum of Perkins 4-108 power in a Vancouver 42. I see Wayne already referred you to the ftp site, but I have to say I haven't been able to get close to the results shown there. We have exactly the same problem as you. I can run at about 2500 RPM’s OK, but also overheat at anything higher. I've pulled and checked the heat exchanger, both water pumps, replaced the raw water impeller, and I and my mechanic can't figure out anything else we can do. One of the posters on this site seemed to have solved the problem by installing a 2nd heat exchanger in series, but I haven't decided to go that far yet. I have a 17" 3-blade max and have tried 3 different pitches, the last finally getting me to close to 6 knots in flat water at 2500 RPM (so I actually envy your 6.6).
Bottom line in my opinion is that the 4-108 at 50 hp seems to be about 25 hp underpowered for this 30,000 lb. boat. I talked to a Van 42/Perkins owner in the Caribbean a couple of years ago who summed the situation up pretty well - sails great but powers like stink. We still have about 4 years before we break out for our 2+ year cruise, but I expect as that time approaches we might just bite the bullet and repower with a 75-horse Yanmar.
Bill Rohde Jubilee V-42 PH Cutter September 2002
Hi Mark and Bill,
I solved my overheating problem by adding a second heat exchanger on my Vancouver 42 CC. I can now motor at 2650-2700RPM all day and do 6.5 to 7.2 kts depending on the wind and seas. I did not change the prop at all. I can send you details if you want.
I have a Borg Warner Velvet Series 1000 transmission with a ratio of 2.13:1. The stern really squats down above 2500RPM too. I think that all displacement hulls do that.
There are specs on the FTP site for the Perkins 4-108 (chart is reprinted above). The engine's net output is 39hp @2700 and 47hp @ 4000RPM. Seems like a lot more noise for not much gain.
I agree with John Van Zwieten that the 4-108 is not enough for the V-42. In fact, I visited our local Tayana broker and he told me that Tayana is putting a Yanmar 75hp engine in a new one that they just sold.
What sort of fuel consumption do you have when you run up to 2500RPM?
Doug Simms September 2002
My tach (as I believe most diesels do) comes off the tach. Also, I can only get 2200 RPM indicated on mine at full throttle, so am not sure I trust it until I can find an optical tach to borrow sometime so I can verify it.
By the way, for anyone concerned with the overheating issue, I solved mine. The symptom was that it would run fine for 10-60 minutes, then overheat (faster at higher throttle than at lower). I pulled my heat exchanger, filled it up with Lime Away (purchased at the local Longs drug store) and left it over night. By morning, the foaming had stopped and there was 1/4" - 3/8" of what I think was calcium carbonate sludge in the bottom of the bucket. But it back together and now I can't get it to overheat even at full throttle.
For the record, removing and replacing it was not as difficult a job as I had feared.
Fair winds - Dan Best September 2002
The Perkins 4-108 is not powerful enough to run the V-42 at hull speed unless it can turn at over 3000 RPM. Its 50 horses are only developed when the engine turns 4000 rpm. I can't tell you how many people I have talked to with the same overheating problem. There are only two solutions I have heard that work.
1. Add an additional heat exchanger, which doubles the cooling and makes the engine almost impossible to overheat. I have talked to two other V-42 owners, a couple of owners of other large cruisers with 4-108 and a couple of mechanics who have done this with good results. I have come to the belief that the 4-108 just does not have enough cooling capacity to run at high enough speeds to develop its potential horsepower.
2. Get another engine that is more powerful at lower RPM’s. This second choice is the path I have taken by installing a Perkins/Sabre M65: 65 horses at 2600 RPM. I get 7.5 knots cruising while turning 2400 RPM. And I have the spare HP to turn a second 240-amp alternator.
Changing the pitch of the prop is something you can play with. I tried it with the 4-108 and it didn't work but you may have better luck. I tried increasing the pitch from 11 to 12 - nothing. Theoretically, if you lessen the pitch you can run the engine faster under less load thus increasing the available horsepower of the 4-108. I went the other way increasing the pitch to provide more propulsion at the same RPM that had no effect I could see. I haven't heard of anyone trying to lessen the pitch and running the engine faster so I don't know if that works. I believe that the V-42 hull speed is 7.6 knots which should be the goal, in my mind, of your efforts vis-a-vis cruising speed.
John B. Van Zwieten September 2002
I've got a CT37 with a Perkins 4-108. There seems to be a LOT of differing ideas over the max RPM of the ole Perkins. I get 7 knots, hull speed, with my Perkins only turning 1800-2000 rpm. I think I've got a 16x9 RH prop and she does just fine with that -- no problems. My Perkins shop says that 1800-2000 should be fine -- as long as I can reach hull speed and not under or overheat. Just my two cents -- I'd love to hear other opinions. Happy sailing.
John Kalpus Prudence CT37 San Diego September 2002
Thanks for the info. I had a 2-blade 16 x 11 and changed to a 3-blade 16 x 10 with good results - went from about 1800 RPM max to 25-2600 max before overheating. Speed increase from around 6 to over 6.5. I am tempted to try going one more step down on the pitch to see what happens. Or adding a second heat exchanger, if I can figure out how that is done...
Mark V-42 September 2002
If you decide to do the rebuild, I'd suggest you also consider using TransAtlantic Diesels down in Virginia. The guy that runs the operation is a Brit who specializes in rebuilding Perkins. His reputation is very good, has been in the business a long time, and the price you were quoted from Mack Boring was close to what he charges, as I recall. Check out his web site: www.tadiesels.com.
Regarding 4-108 removal, it was no problem once we removed the transmission. We put a 4 x 4 across the companionway, lifted the engine slightly with 2 come-alongs, then slid the 4 x 4 forward until the engine cleared the bulkhead. We had the yard's crane lift it out from there. The only trick is to rig your lifting chains so that the back end of the engine can be tilted downward and the engine can be spun around 180 degrees as it goes through the companionway opening. (Be sure to drain your oil first!!!).
In round figures, the new engine costs were roughly as follows:
Engine (excluding tax) ..………………………………………..$9500
New engine supports..(2 lengths of 4" Angle iron w/ welded
New prop shaft.......….…………………………………………..200
Flexible prop shaft coupling………………………………….…...150
Miscellaneous hoses, hardware, wiring, clamps, control
The biggest headache we had during the installation was that the factory shipped us a larger transmission than the one we ordered (KM4 instead of the KM3), so the engine mounts were nearly 2 inches wider than the spec sheets showed. (The larger transmission was provided because they apparently have been having some problems with the torque converters on the KM3 in heavy displacement boats like ours; the KM4 is beefier and does not need a torque converter). As a result, we had to grind over an inch out of each of the engine stringers; a VERY messy and time consuming task. And to add insult to injury, the dealer set up the engine installation jig incorrectly, so when the engine arrived, it sat over 2 inches higher in the hull than it was supposed to. Those 2 mistakes cost us about 30 hours to fix. All told, we spent somewhere around 125 hours on labor for the whole job, although someone more experienced in engine work could probably have done it in half that time.
So, would I go this route again if I had it to do over again? Probably so. Despite the added cost and headaches with figuring out how to fit in the new engine, I had heard too many stories of rebuilds gone bad to want to go that route. I also was concerned about the future replacement parts availability for the 4-108 given that it has now been out of production for 20 years. I also was concerned about the unavailability of a detailed shop manual for the Perkins. (Someone with more experience might be able to get by with that 120-odd page manual that Perkins published, but I felt I needed more information than it contained). And finally, those inevitable oil leaks!!! It took me many, many hours of scrubbing and painting to rid the boat of that old oil smell, and I didn't want to ever go through that drill again. (Question: Why don't the English build computers? Answer: Because they can't figure out how to get them to leak oil.)
If you do decide to go the new route, however, I would seriously consider some of the other options out there. In particular, I'd look closely at the new Volvo engine. It is a slow turning engine, like the Perkins, which should be very durable, and I believe it is narrow enough to drop into the existing stringers with very little modification. Even though the new Yanmar is relatively quiet and smooth, I need to crank it up to 2600 RPM’s to get to cruising speed vs. the old Perkins 1800 RPM’s. At that speed, I doubt the Yanmar will give me 7,000 hours between rebuilds as did the Perkins. (Cruising World or Sail Magazine just did a review of all new marine engines in the 50 HP range - I can make you a copy if you don't have it). Good luck. Keep us posted on your decision.
Dayton Eckerson T-37 #215 MISTRESS November 2002
My 3qm30 is running at over 7900 hours. From what I read, it is not uncommon for this engine to run to 12,000 hours if properly maintained before a rebuild is needed.
fyi, John, s/v Celtic Dream June 2003
I've got a 76 HP engine in a V-42 (weight 31,000 lbs.) and it's over powered. When past 80%, I get gushers of water coming in the cockpit from the scuppers & the stern squats comically. Unless something very strange happens with T-37's, that engine is more than adequate.
Paul V-42 August 2003
I'm about ready to swap out my Van 42's Perkins 4-108 for a turbocharged Yanmar 4JH3-TE. I find the Perkins just too light for the 30K+ lbs. of boat I have, plus its horsepower curve requires you to run the RPM’s way up just to get near-50 horses out of it. I've played with our Max Prop to try to achieve a reasonable balance, but find the Perkins just doesn't have enough guts for the 42. It would probably work good on a 37, but the 42 is just a bit beyond Perkins sweet spot.
Lots of other Van 42 Perkins owners on the list have told me the same thing (poor power performance with the Perkins), except for one who claims to be able to drive his Van 42 with a 4-108 at 7+ knots easily. Can't figure out how he's doing that. I can maybe reach 6 in flat water, but in the 5's with any slop. I suspect I could better that a little bit with one more pitch adjustment, but after tweaking the pitch again I know I'd need to be running the engine close to 3000 to get over 6 knots with the engine (& that assumes that the engine would have enough punch to get up to 3000 RPM in the first place).
So ... bottom line, what engine do you have. Seems to be better to have a bit more power than you need than too little. Overall are you satisfied with the engine? I assume you can run her up easily to 7 knots without experiencing the "geysers" in the cockpit scuppers. I'd be more than happy with that, plus it sounds like you would have some reserve for when you need to drive upwind in any kind of sea, or power out of a dicey situation, which I can barely do now.
Bill Rohde V-42 August 2003
The designation on my engine is (Yanmar) 4JH2-TE. The rating is 57kw maximum which I figure to be about 76 hp or so. There is no issue running the boat at 7 Kts water speed which is only a bit over 2k rpm. That's just below or right at where the turbo kicks in.
There is a LOT of reserve for running against wind/tide. I do not have the prop spec's here nor will I be at the boat any time soon where I have them. I have a fixed prop.
My slight concern is that I run the engine too lightly. Diesels run better when run closer to their rated output than where I do. I like this rpm because it gives a very relaxed and quiet ride. I, from time to time. rev her up just to decarbonize the engine. I have no idea how often this should be done or if my doing so really does help matters at all. I tend to run with some light gray smoke or no smoke at all, but I do get some black deposit on the side of the boat where the exhaust exits. This washes off easily.
I'm perfectly happy with my engine so far. I think technically I may have done better with less of an engine, but it was Chris' idea (previous owner) to install this one. I do like it being quiet and smooth in ops. I'm near 800 hrs with no unscheduled maintenance at all.
At my low cruise, which in still water is about 7kts, consumption is 1 GPH or maybe 1.1 GPH. I can't seem to get a clear reading due to uncertainty about when my tanks are full.
Paul Cassel V-42 August 2003
Thanks for the info, Paul.
I'm looking at a 4JH3-TE, which I think is simply a later generation of your engine. Specs say 69 horse sustained at 3700 rpm, 75 horses peak at 3800 rpm. At about 2K rpm, the engine power curve looks like about 47 HP. At 2000 RPM, my present Perkins 4-108 is rated at less than 30 HP.
If you get a chance some time, I'd be interested in the diameter and pitch of your prop. Also, the reduction ratio you have in your transmission (I assume you have a matching Yanmar transmission)?
Thanks again for the prompt reply. This is looking more and more like the way I want to go.
I was told by the previous owner that the engine was rated at 66 hp. Then I read the tag on the engine and got the 57kw which is why I said about 76 hp. When I'm again on the boat, which may be quite a while, I'll remember to spec the prop. I don't think that spec'ing the props for these boats is tough for pros.
Bill Rohde V-42 August 2003
It always seems that leaks occur in the strangest places... How about this one! I came back aboard after a week away and smelled diesel. There was almost a half-gallon underneath my Perkins 4-108 but luckily it was in a plastic container set on the drip pan. The container was there to catch oil dripping from the engine due to a partially blown, rear oil seal. The last time I replaced the seal, I figured the engine would leak again sooner or later so I drilled a hole in the bell housing so it would only leak (drip) in one place. The diesel only dripped out of the engine due to the bad rear oil seal. I don’t know where it would have gone with a proper seal…
So I checked the oil level in the engine. All the way up the dipstick! I started pumping out the oil. My 4-quart sump yielded 2 12/ gallons of oil and diesel. The engine was virtually flooded! I thought it might be the diaphragm on the fuel lift pump. That had failed before and diluted the engine oil with a little diesel. I caught that with oil analysis within 20 engine hours and sustained no damage. I replaced the lift pump (a cheap and easy job) and motored 2200 miles without problem. So I called a mechanic and he said that a Perkins can only leak into the sump from 3 sources: the fuel lift pump, injectors (but not gallons - just small amounts), or the fuel injection pump. It was the fuel injection pump due to a seal failure around its internal drive shaft. Just a mere $625 later, I am ready to reinstall that pump. And that's for an overhaul. New is twice that!
My lessons learned:
1) Check oil level before starting the engine. Excessive levels means diesel or water... If you try to start an engine flooded with fluids, it may bend something due to hydraulic lock.
2) Best not to leave the engine with a fuel tank selected that can gravity feed the engine. Use the bilge tank when laying up. Or secure the fuel at the manifold.
3) A large plastic container in the oil drip pan gives double protection...
4) If you have more than 4000 or 5000 hours on a Perkins 4-108, change out the fuel lift pump as a precaution.
Wayne V-42 C/C RESTLESS November 2003
Subject: Opinions on horsepower for V-42 and T-37
I'm seeking opinions on the adequacy of the horsepower for engines for Tayana 37’s and 42’s. How much is really enough? In rendering your opinion, please assume the boat will be used for cruising anywhere in the world. Thanks!
Lauren O'Connor January 2004
After four seasons of fiddling with Max-Prop pitch settings with our Perkins 4-108-powered Van 42 Pilot House (which I believe displaces out at 2-3 thousand pounds more than a standard Center Cockpit or Aft Cockpit Van 42), we've decided to bite the bullet and re-power. We're presently re-powering with a new Yanmar 4JH3-TE which peaks at 75HP, about 50% more peak HP than the Perkins and considerably more HP lower at lower RPM ranges.
Will this be more than I need? Possibly. I've heard of others with the naturally aspirated predecessor to this Yanmar (I think about 65 HP) who have been quite happy with it. That said, in my opinion the Perkins, while a good, dependable engine, is marginal at best for a boat the size of the Van 42. Could one live with the Perkins in that boat? Certainly. I did for 4 seasons, but I wanted more engine for when we eventually take off on our cruising sabbatical in a few years.
I can't speak for the T37, but that boat is likely enough lighter than our Van 42 Pilot House for the Perkins 4-108 to be an excellent match.
Bill Rohde January 2004
I think that I am under-propped. I can run at 3000 and above (according to the tach) easily. I usually cruise at 2800, which corresponds to about 6 knots (per the GPS). I intend to measure my prop next haul out.
Speaking about temperature, my Perkins usually runs just under 180 F. On a recent trip to Ensenada, the temp gradually rose to above 200 F. Not too long after this the engine quit due to a clogged fuel filter. After I changed the filter and got the engine going again, the temp ran consistently at the old 180 F value. I am thinking that a fuel-starved diesel must run hotter than usual.
Yup, if you inject the 'precisely correct fuel mixture' into any piston engine, the combustion chamber will essentially 'be too hot' and can be quickly damaged. All piston engines are 'over-fueled' to prevent thermal damage .... the excess/unburned fuel helps to cool the combustion chamber. If you were 'starving' with a lean mixture, not enough excess fuel will be available to evaporate to help sweep the hot gases out of the chamber.
Rich Hampel October 2004
Subject: Perkins 4-108 fresh water coolant pump
That pump does not have the rubber impeller blades and therefore is not as susceptible to damage and doesn't need replacement as frequently - but others who know more than I about Perkins may have different opinions and would easily be better qualified than I on whether or not to carry a replacement.
Here is something you should be warned about. I was cleaning my engine by spraying lots of engine degreaser on it. The degreaser apparently got into the sealed bearing of that water pump (that's my guess to explain the trail of black, gummy material down the engine from a small hole in the bottom of the pump).
You can't change or regrease that bearing. And there is a somewhat delicate ceramic part in there with the bearing. Tried to remove the pulley to put it onto a spare pump that I have (from a previous owner) and the pulley broke. It is made of a brittle metal. It cost almost $200 to replace the pulley, the gasket, and to have it pressed on my spare pump. They use a special tool to pull the pulley. And a special press to put it on.
Keep that problem with the changing the pulley in mind when swapping out a pump. If I were to get a spare, I'd make sure it had a pulley already on it. I'd take it and install it and put the original away as the spare - with gaskets.
The pump shaft's changed over the years in a way that is confusing. The early ones had a clip-ring at the end. Press the pulley on just far enough to be able to get the clip ring onto the groove in the shaft. The newer pumps have shafts that a just a little shorter and have no groove. That is okay - the clip-ring is not needed. It is critical that the pulley be at the right distance onto the shaft to ensure it is in line with the other pulleys or the belt will wear away.
Also, you have a plate that lives under the pump - between it and the engine block. That means that there are two gaskets. You will need to do lots of scraping to get the metal very smooth and clean when putting all of this back together.
Now you know more than I do about 4-108 Perkins fresh-water/coolant pumps.
Steve Wolfer s/v Island Girl December 2004
Subject: Marvel Mystery Oil
I keep a storage of 'change-out' oil composed of 25% Marvel Mystery Oil : 75% regular Rotella.
Drain (suck out through the dipstick) the old oil - discard.
Refill with 'change-out' oil, run at no load until warm.
Let sit for 1 day (or more)
Drain (suck out) change-out oil and return to storage. Change filter.
Refill with Rotella. etc.
The MMO will help remove the carbon deposits in the piston ring grooves (etc.) .... probably the largest vector of cylinder wall wear in a diesel (blow-by and compression loss). For winter storage I fill the crankcase with 100% MMO run at NO load until warm and then shut down to let it soak for 3 months. With 100% MMO never run the engine with any load, just high idle. Works on automotive gasoline engines also to prolong engine life. I you cant find MMO then 25% Automatic transmission fluid is a good substitute.
Rich Hampel January 2005
Finding system cooling / heat transfer problems is quite easy.
The most common causes are:
1. broken rubber vane on a waterpump impeller .... change yearly.
1a. broken vane has migrated down stream and is now partly blocking a tube/passage
2. Blocked inlet strainer.
3. Partly closed exhaust exit/discharge throughhull valve (almost ALWAYS forgotten to be reopened).
4. If raw water cooled, fouled engine
5. If freshwater cooled, fouled heat exchanger
6. Fouled exhaust manifold - huge rust platelets breaking loose from the casting internals and
blocking the flow channels
7. Blocked wet muffler system water injection nozzle.
8. Lean-burn (fuel-air mixture ratio) engine (rare)
9. Under pitched prop ... engine doesn’t develop full rpm/max. HP under full load.
10. Over tightened propeller shaft stuffing box.
11. Stuck/sticking thermostat.
FIRST, verify that the water flow rate at the hull exit is within spec. - found in your engine manual. Take a bucket and stopwatch, run the engine at the specified rpm and verify. Should be about 3+ gallons per minute at 2000 rpm ... check your manual.
SECOND, establish maximum rpm at hull speed.
THIRD, is temp sensor intact/working? Disconnect elec. leads to note gauge change then reattach - if the needle 'moves' then its probably OK.
If there is sufficient (to spec.) flow - as verified in 'FIRST' above, then the system is probably fouled (or the fresh water circuit of the heat exchanger/engine is blocked/fouled). If fouled, then use a commercial boiler de-scaler such as Marsolv (www.marsolv.com) or Rydlyme. these are organic acids that will NOT dissolve the base metal of the engine as will acids (hydrochloric or muratic, etc.). Simply drain the water, add the de-scaler and let sit a few hours/days, then flush.
If there is not sufficient flow, then examine the system, retrograde - from the exit back to and through the intake.
Caution: save the injection nozzle on the water lift nozzle inspection for last as the carbon steel 'riser' piping is usually weakened or corroded due to the hot corrosive exhaust gases .... sometimes you can 'get away' with a disassembly without harm .... but not very often.
Check the water pump vanes (the fresh water pump usually has rigid metal impeller vanes and doesn’t need replacement unless there is water gushing out from the shafting seal). Replace the rubber raw water impeller and grease the shafting (zerk fitting or screw cap) ****yearly****.
Remove the rubber hose that connects between the exhaust manifold and the water injection nozzle of the water lift muffler. Briefly run the (cold) engine to 2000 rpm or the spec. rpm discharge the hose into a bucket, measure the time fill and compare the flow to the exit flow rate.
If MORE than the output (low) flow rate, you probably have a blocked injection nozzle to the water lift. The dissolved carbonate salts that are dissolved in seawater become precipitating solids when sea water reaches above 150 degrees F.
These 'salts' (rocks actually) once formed are insoluble and accumulate and block BOTH the exhaust gases and injection water. Same thing happens upstream inside the engine where the metal surfaces in the cooling passages approach over 150°. Think of constipation!!!! Visually you will see a 'rock' growing just downstream of the injection port/nozzle. Injection elbows/nozzles are cheap ... and so is all the carbon steel pipe and pipe cladding needed to rebuild the heat riser / loop.
If NO change when you check the discharge from the exhaust manifold, reattach outlet hose and disconnect the small hose (elbow) between the engine and the inlet to the exhaust manifold, measure the flow and compare to the output value.
If MORE than the outlet value the exhaust manifold is blocked with rust/scale. These iron casting degrade by issuing HUGE platelets of rust from the side walls of the internal casting (lap defect of casting process - quite common). A stiff wire pushed against the lodged flakes usually will break them or break them loose ... if not then new manifold. Note: if the water was drained from the engine and the engine was stored 'dry', the rust flakes will PROBABLY be the cause of the blockage - don’t ever let the cooling system internals dry-out as drying out vigorously promotes severe rust and rust flakes. Always store the engine 'wet' and with corrosion/rust inhibitors in a totally filled cooling system. Note: if you remove the manifold, be sure to pressurize the manifold with full-pressure 'hose water' (30-60 psi). Then look for pinhole leaks of water flowing from the ‘water’ side into the 'gas' side. A pressure check of the exhaust manifold will prevent engine destruction when the engine shuts down and water from the pin hole leaks fills the cylinder/combustion chamber - pistons rings 'freeze' in their grooves and the valves become frozen and stuck.
If inlet flow EQUALS the exit flow at this point .... then definitely a fouling problem or blocked inlet strainer, etc. ..... OR (hold onto your wallet) engine combustion problems.
There is a possibility that the engine is has a huge bubble or air entrapped inside the engine block (air bound). Air will not allow the temp gage sensor to work --- the gage will show low readings when the engine is actually hot.
Remedy, close the inlet valve or pinch the hose with a vice grip, remove the "highest hose' on th engine (that little elbow between the engine and the exhaust manifold) and manually fill the engine through the piping to remove the trapped air, reassemble and check operation.
Normal engine fuel supply is typically 5-10% too rich with the excess over-fueling used to cool the combustion chamber with unburned fuel. If the mixture is too lean the combustion chamber becomes too hot (and engine overheats as it destroys itself). Remedy: rebuild high pressure injection pump ... can you spell $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ or clean/replace the inlet fuel filters .. not so $$$$$$$$$$
From the SECOND step above..... if the maximum rpm at hull speed is greatly below the specified MAX. rpm at max. developed horsepower (look at the 'power curve' in your manual (developed HP vs. rpm) ... the prop is probably under pitched and the engine is 'lugging': too low a rpm (hp) for the applied load ... the engine is grossly over fueling and the 'fire' is propagating past the exhaust valves .... and the combustion pressure is sky-high and the wrist pins and main bearings are taking a 'shellacking' ... and the engine will prematurely wear-out. OR the engine governor needs adjustment (call in the diesel mechanic time).
For foolproof operation: At least yearly --- change the rubber pump impeller, grease both pump shafts, clean the inlet strainer, measure and record the volumetric water output flow rate at the exit, change the engine and heat exchanger zincs. Every two years: de-scale the raw water side of the engine (every year if raw water cooled (no heat exchanger)), Commit to memory the 'thermal characteristics' of your engine running at 'cruise' rpm by 'touching' all major components of the cooling system with your fingers.... how FAST you pull your fingers away will give you an impression of the various surface temperature (obviously don’t touch the bare 'heat riser' - that vertical set of pipes between the exhaust manifold and the entrance to the water lift muffler.
BTW the heat exchanger is normally designed for a 15 degree 'approach' so that if the inlet raw water exceeds 90 degrees, the thermal efficiency of the exchanger is be quite 'marginal'.... You don’t state where the boat is .... and if you’re anywhere near 90+ degree water and I’m still ice skating/skiing ............... I’d be damn jealous of your overheating problems.
Other, ...... don’t bother to buy a new super-expensive marine engine thermostat. De-scaler compound will usually clean it up and restore it back to operating correctness.
Hope this offered analysis protocol helps. There's more to this but the above will cover about 95% of all cooling 'problems'. Yearly maintenance and burned/blistered fingertips will prevent a lot of future agony.
Rich Hampel T-37 February 2005
Subject: Volvo Penta diesel
Hi everyone. Has someone heard anything about the new Volvo Penta 100 Horse?
I have heard some negative things about the old Volvo's but the new (2 years old) version seems pretty good. I am considering a Yanmar or the Volvo Penta. I think 100 horses is also a little much for a V-42. The previous Perkins ran for 24 years but there are no Perkins Marine dealers in the Toronto area. Any experience out there with the new Volvo?
David Campbell Coco I Toronto February 2005
I have never met a satisfied Volvo diesel owner but plenty of dissatisfied ones. The cost of parts was a common complaint I heard from many.
I had a Yanmar on my last boat and don’t know how many thousands of trouble-free hours I put on it. The new Tayana has a Yanmar and I’m very pleased with its performance so far.
John Lewis February 2005
I wholeheartedly agree with you regarding the Yanmar. However, my VP MD17C still runs good with only ~1500 hours on it and I'm just going to have it checked out. With two girls in college I've got to make this baby last for a while!
John Keefe CT37 No.63 ODYSSEA Youngstown, NY February 2005
The comments were based on my impression that your engine had died, and they you were looking into replacing it with a Volvo 100 hp. If your engine runs well, pay tithe to the mechanic and keep it running. I bow deeply to our old Perkins 4-108 every time I get on the boat. I'm not sure what I would do if that died. I found a good mechanic in San Diego, and have him go over it about once a year. It's close to that time. Last year he changed the front oil seal and the exhaust elbow. Not a lot of work, but it still cost a bit more than a BOAT UNIT. But a new engine would be prohibitive.
Subject: Perkins thermostat
Harvey is right about the opening temp of 156 degrees. I tend to call it a 185-degree thermostat but I don't have a clue what a mechanic would refer to it as. Here are the specs from the 1978 Perkins Workshop Manual:
Thermostat (Indirect Cooled Engines - anti-freeze in block)
Type: Wax capsule
Opening Temperature: 156 degrees F
Fully open at: 188 degrees F
Minimum Travel at Fully Open Temp: 0.281 inches
Thermostat (Direct Cooled Engines): (salt water in the block)
Opening Temperature: 125 degrees F
Fully open at: 150 degrees F
Minimum Travel at Fully Open Temp: 0.281 inches
Wayne Strausbaugh May 2005
Subject: Perkins 4-107 Thermostat replacement
Many thanks for the clarification. I had initially pulled out the original thermostat, and was told to replace it with a standard 180-degree thermostat. The engine overheated. I then took my original brass Perkins thermostat, boiled it in vinegar for about 30 minutes to remove the caked salts, and then could clearly read that it said something around 156 degrees. But that is the initiation of opening, as you pointed out. I found that it finally opened fully at about 180 degs. F. I then realized that the original thermostat was still in good condition. I removed the new thermostat, and put the original back in. After then bleeding all the air from the system, my engine sat comfortably at about 175 degrees at all RPM’s. The only subsequent change in temperature happened when I added a circulating hot water heater from Accuheat (same as the Red Dot heater), and the temp then dropped to 165 degrees. F. Although that is a bit low, and with heavy motoring I can send it up to about 175, I decided to stay with the thermostat.
Do you think the old thermostat kept the engine cooler or do you think you had not completed all the bleeding when you were running the new thermostat? I think the cooling systems on all models of the 4-108 are just a little on the small side. As you indicated, adding even an auxiliary heater increases the cooling capacity. Remember Doug on Aquadesiac? He installed two heat exchangers in series to handle an overheating problem. He reported that it worked quite well.
Wayne V-42 C/C RESTLESS May 2005
Subject: Using engine freshwater seacock as an emergency bilge pump
FYI, the Perkins 4-108 pumps 5 gallons/minute through the cooling system at idle. Probably triple or better at higher RPM's.
Wayne V-42 C/C RESTLESS May 2005
When it comes to cooling systems, it almost makes be believe in trolls, goblins, demons and hobbits. When we first bought Night Heron, it started to overheat during our first long trip, and we struggled with it for many months. The temperature would quickly rise to 200 degrees F., and with any substantial load it would hit 212 degrees F. and higher. We replaced the fresh water pump, the salt-water pump, thermostats, cleaned the heat exchanger, and even the exhaust lines. We replaced the electronic thermometer with a simple direct reading thermometer in the engine block. The simple fix that seemed to finally make all this effort work was putting on a petcock on the heat exchanger. The petcock was on a 2' long piece of heater hose. This allowed me to properly bleed the cooling system. My conclusion was that each of the things we replaced were in need of replacing or repair, but without properly and completely bleeding all air out of the system, I was getting airlock and the cooling system wasn't properly circulating the cooling fluid. (The mechanic who did all this work was not the one who finally asked me if I was properly bleeding the system. It was a local Perkins mechanic, who mentioned this almost as an aside "I assume you thoroughly bled the system, didn't you?" Huh? "Well, why don't you just put on a $2 petcock?") I subsequently also replaced the heat exchanger completely, as well as the waterlift and the exhaust elbow. By that time, I finally managed to get the system to sit down at about 175 degs. F. I then installed our hot water heater, and that didn't seem to have much effect on the system temperature. But when I added the Accuheat heater that resulted in a drop in temperature of about 8-10 degrees. F. This is surely due, in part, to the fact that the heater is several feet away from the engine, and there is probably heat loss in the hoses from engine to the heater and then back to the engine. There is also the obvious heat exchange occurring in the Accuheat heater itself.
But the most important thing is to properly bleed all air out of the system, and to have a suitable way of doing this at the highest point in the system. The bleed nut on the heat exchanger is a disaster, and guarantees that you will scald your hand, and then drop the bleed nut into the deepest part of the bilge!
Tracking down the overheating engine problem ended up costing me well over $1,000, and I was ready to sink the boat. Fortunately, since that time, (and at risk of inviting disaster), we have had relatively few problems with the engine for the past 5 years. I hope it continues that way. I did have the front engine oil seal and the transmission rear seal replaced about a year ago, when they were found to be leaking. But by that time I had become inured to the big bills and high cost of maintaining the boat. I silently utter a prayer every time I start the engine.
But I suspect that some of the problems that our group may be having is due to calcific deposits in the heat exchanger, others due to airlock, some due to bad fresh water pump, poor status of impeller, plugged cooling system, encrusted exhaust manifold. I think that an encrusted thermostat does contribute to the problem, but that may be one of the least likely sources of the problem.
Harvey T-37 May 2005
I’ve wondered about the zinc, or lack thereof, on my 4-108 although any research efforts always led me to the same conclusion -- that there isn’t a zinc to replace and no easy way to add one. How does one identify a “New” 4-108? Are there “Old” 4-108 with Bowman heat exchanger? Why the design change from zinc to zinc-less?
Thanks, James May 2005
Look (above) at the Perkins spec sheet. It shows a Perkins with the Bowman heat exchanger. The tube stack is insulated by the rubber boots so it has no direct electrical connection to the block. Evidently, Perkins thought that no zinc was required. Some people buy the inline zinc holder that goes on an engine cooling hose. I had one but removed it. Don't know if it did any good... I also posted general pictures of Perkins 4-108 engine cooling configurations on the ftp site at www.tayanaowners.org under “Owners Posts”. There was no "old" Bowman setup. It came about around 1980 or 1981.
Wayne Strausbaugh May 2005
Check out the thermostat in pan of boiling water on a stovetop.
Fill with water, throw in the thermostat, turn on the heat and watch the thermostat and a thermometer until the water starts to boil.
A long, rolling boil with vinegar usually clears most sticking thermostats.
Your temp problem 'may' only be that the raw inlet water is still so damn cold that the 'bypass' orifice flow in the thermostat is overwhelming the system. This assumes that your thermostat has an orifice in it so that there is always some water passing through it.
Rich Hampel May 2005
Subject: Thermostat replacement
Replacing the thermostat is quite straightforward.
The first thing to do is read the Perkins manual so you will know where the thermostat is located. (on our 4-108, the coolant tank is across the middle of the top front end of the engine. The thermostat is located under the port corner of the coolant tank.) You access the thermostat by draining enough fluid so that the reservoir coolant tank is about dry. You drain the fluid by removing one of the coolant hoses that are below the level of the coolant tank.
Lay out your tools and plan of action.
Take digital photos at each step of the way, so that you will be able to re-assemble it later.
Drain the coolant tank.
Disconnect any hoses running to or from the coolant tank. Label them clearly.
Remove the 2 or 3 bolts that hold the tank in place. Be very careful, as they may be frozen in place. If you break one, it is a big PITA, but can be repaired with a stud remover. You will have to go to a local Perkins dealer to find a replacement stud.
Lift off the coolant tank. You will now find the thermostat. (If there is one there. If the engine had chronic overheating problems that were unsolved, the previous owner may have completely removed it.) Do NOT remove it. Stare at it, and take a picture so that you will remind yourself which is the top and which the bottom.
Carefully lift it off and save the paper gasket. You will not use the gasket again, but you will need it to purchase the correct replacement at NAPA. Buy several spares. They are cheap. Examine the thermostat. If it is encrusted, I suggest that you boil it for 30 minutes in a concentrated solution of vinegar. If it was installed using "Liquid Gasket" (the blue goo), make sure that it didn't spread onto the thermostat itself. That alone can cause a thermostat to malfunction).
Once the thermometer is clean, you should be able to read a set of numbers inscribed on it. The original factory Perkins thermostat says "156 degrees" - that is when the thermostat STARTS to open. It will fully open at about 180 degrees.
Now test the Opening/Closing temperatures of the thermostat. Put it in a pot of water, insert a "Candy thermometer", and turn on the heat. As the temperature rises to 156, the thermostat should start to open. Let it go on all the way to boiling at 212 degrees. See when it appears to be fully open. Remove the thermostat from the boiling water with a pair of tongs and set it down to cool. Did it open smoothly. If not, you will need a replacement. Even if it is in good shape, it's wise to have a spare thermostat on hand. Under any circumstance you will need to replace the original paper gasket. You also need a tube of that Blue Goopy Liquid Gasket material. A small 3 oz tube will cost about $6. All those things can be purchased at NAPA or any auto supply store such as Pep Boys or Kragen.
If the thermostat is bad, you need to get a replacement from your local auto parts supplier. They are cheap, but not as good a quality as the original Perkins made of nice brass colored metal. They may not have the units with the correct temperature. Remember that gasoline engines often are designed to operate at higher temperatures than are diesels. You want one that starts to open at 156 to 160.
In reassembling the system, just reverse all procedures. But replace the paper gasket with a new one. Put on only a thin film of the Blue Gasket goo. Excess amounts will jam the thermostat. The actual process of disassembly and reassembly will take an hour the first time you do it, assuming you don't break any bolts. By the third time you do it, it will take less than 10-15 minutes.
The critical things are:
1) Have a big jug to collect the antifreeze. It is a violation of environmental regulations to pump it overboard due to the toxicity of ethylene glycol. (Forget the fact that anybody with a car dumps it into the street, where it then flows into a storm gutter, and then into the ocean!) If you do collect it carefully, you can reuse it, so work with a clean jug.
2) Line up all your tools. Socket wrench to remove studs holding coolant tank in place.
3) Digital camera to help you figure out why it doesn't go back together as readily as it came apart.
Good luck, Harvey May 2005
Getting back to basics, for my money, plot out on paper the actual engine cooling flow, ALL hoses. Check that against the engine/boat manual.
If it's a new problem 1st look at something that you have changed (e.g. new water tank, new hose etc.
If you haven't changed anything look for something that has broken/worn out.
Start at the most obvious problem areas, thermostat, impeller.
It's all logical :-)
It took me days to identify that when I took the plate off the water pump to check the impeller and that putting the plate back on with a gasket (1/16" thick gasket - it looked like it should have been on there to begin with since the plate was scored by the impeller) that this 1/16" would let enough water by-pass the impeller action and kill the engine cooling efficiency. By this time, I had ripped every wretched heating hose off (they are still not re-connected but who wants hot showers anyway), taken out the thermostat (it's still not in but who wants a hot engine anyway) plus had every marine "engineer" in the yacht club in for a beer, consolation and advice.
Bill & Sue, T37 Wellantanzerin, TYA3725707 Port Hope, Canada May 2005
Harvey, I had to grin reading your description of changing out a thermostat.
On Kamaloha, which has a Yanmar 4JH3E, it was more like this when I did it in Bequia:
(My coolant reservoir is not in the way)
0) Read the Yanmar service manual to figure out where the thermostat was located.
1) Removed two bolts holding thermostat bell in place. Noted they weren't the same.
2) Loosened the hose clamps holding hose to bell.
3) Pried bell off. A few ounces of coolant ran down to my oil-catching sponge under the engine. No big deal.
4) Dug out thermostat. Boiled in pot on stove with candy thermometer purchased at small dry-goods store on island. Seemed to work fine.
5) Scraped old gasket off with razor blade.
6) Took paper and made tracing for new gasket.
7) Using razor blade, cut up Cheerios box in shape of new gasket. Smeared liberally with silicone jelly (the stuff that stays liquid, not the stuff that sets.)
9) Tested engine. Engine still overheated.
10) Figured I must have installed thermostat upside-down.
11) Repeated steps 1 - 8. Getting pretty good at cutting up Cheerios boxes.
12) Tested engine. Engine still overheated.
13) Had a beer or two. Pondered.
14) Took off "radiator" cap and put candy thermometer in coolant.
15) Ran engine. Thermometer didn't match the engine panel. Engine not really overheating after all.
16) Had another beer.
17) Ignored problem for one year.
18) At a hunch, disassembled and cleaned all electrical connections – sensor and gauge.
19) Now engine gauge no longer indicates engine is overheating.
What I learned:
a) Corroded connections can make the gauge read HIGH. This is not at all intuitive for me, but that's what happened.
b) Cheerios boxes make pretty good coolant gaskets. (It's still there two years later).
Charlie May 2005
Charlie makes a good point: In my experience a bad ground connection will make a gauge read high, and a lost ground will make a gauge peg high.
Frank Timmons V42 Magic Dragon Deltaville, VA May 2005
Thanks for the responses. The noise actually sounds more like a metallic fan blade hitting something solid, i.e. ping noise. Boat would still go into gear, but didn't want further damage-sounded bad.
From what I gather, the engine and transmission will have to be pulled together, and I will have my work cut out for me, even if the marina does most of it.
Any other advice? (no, a new boat is not an option) :o)
Mark s/v Querenca, T37 May 2005
Don't know what engine you have. I have a Yanmar 4JHE on my T37 and there is (was) a "squirrel cage" fan mounted on the flywheel. The screws attaching this fan worked their way out and sent the fan crashing around that space in the bell housing, ultimately breaking up into pieces, jamming the flywheel, bringing the engine to a sudden stop (14 miles out of Acapulco, middle of the night, no wind). The description of your noise made me think of this and cause me to reply for the first time (long time lurker). Repairs were effected without removing the engine. The mechanic pulled the transmission back enough to remove metal pieces. Told me I really didn't need it (or stay there long enough to get one shipped in). I've been running without it since 1995. BTW, repair was effected with the boat in the water.
Ralph Gagliardi, T37 Brendan's Watch, #526 May 2005
I have a V-42 (1988) with a Yanmar 4JHE and had the same experience with the fan breaking apart inside the flywheel housing jamming the flywheel and the engine stopping abruptly. Fortunately for me I was only about a mile from my dock. My engine was repaired the same way but a new fan was reinstalled (with the boat in the water).
Michael D. Lieberman May 2005
About 2 years ago, I published a study on my Perkins overheating problem in my T-42. The solution I found to work the best was to add a second heat exchanger. I did some calculations from my Thermodynamics classes back in College and determined that the Bowman heat exchanger is 50% undersized. My Perkins developed an oil leak into the coolant system last summer, so I now have the FINAL solution to the overheating problem, a new Yanmar 4JH3-TE engine. I can now cruise at 7.0kts at 3/4 throttle too.
Best Regards, Salty Doug June 2005
For all you 4-108 owners out there, here are some great overhaul pictures and accompanying details from Rod Lawson. Thanks Rod – excellent information! http://www.westsailor.com/
then click on Articles.
James, I noticed your post on the Tayana board. I couldn’t post a reply as I’m not a member and hope you don’t mind me contacting you directly. I have a 4108 in a Westsail 32. I recently went through the whole overhaul project (including replacing the rear main seal which leaked badly) and posted a step by step pictorial on my website. www.westsailor.com You will find the article in the section titled “Articles”. Feel free to take a look and hopefully it might help you out. Feel free to post the link to the site as well.
S.V. El Viajero
Brisbane, Australia, web: www.westsailor.com June 2005