Sailnet Tayana List
Subject: Engine soundproofing
I agree
with Tad - Dacron is ideal for when the wind is blowing. But barring that, you
need something with better sound absorbing qualities.
We purchased our 1990 Van42 PH the
summer of 2000. The PH was a factory-customization, executed extremely well but
with absolutely no thought to engine sound levels. It was awful. The entire
area under the PH sole was open to the engine, and the PH floorboards had only
standard Ta Yang "acoustical tiles" attached to the underside. I
still don't understand how the prior owner put up with the engine noise for 10
years.
A friend of mine recommended I check
out Soundown, http://www.soundown.com. He had sought their advice and used their
materials to totally remount his genset and construct a better genset enclosure
on his Privledge 485 catamaran. I can attest that you simply cannot hear his
genset anymore - except for the exhaust water coming out. I was impressed.
Soundown's business is noise
reduction solutions for various industries, including marine. Their web page
(click Noise Solutions and take link to sailboats) has quite a bit of general
information regarding sound isolating engines and gensets. If you call them
they're more than happy to discuss your specific issues with you and recommend
solutions in detail.
West Marine sells noise barrier foam
kits which Soundown supplies ('tho the catalogue doesn't say they're from
Soundown), however West's price was the same as the direct Soundown price and
West listed only a couple of their products (plus they didn't carry the heavier
absorption materials). I'd go directly to Soundown.
For my situation I built two
removable panels around the exposed (to the rest of the area under the PH sole)
aft and port side of the engine. I then insulated the entire engine box and
cover with their 2 pound 2" vinyl barrier milar-backed
acoustical foam. I continued with 2#/2" foam throughout the remainder of
the PH sole. I also purchased some 1 1/2# 1" foam for the steps in front
of the engine (where I had less clearance), for the sole area in the aft of the
PH above the genset (where I also have less space), and for several other
miscellaneous areas I wanted to sound-deaden.
I finished the 2" installation
plus the most critical 1" in June, then decided
to enjoy the rest of the summer. The difference was incredible. I hope to
finish the job this fall and/or before commissioning again next spring.
Buy their installation materials too.
They have some mechanical fasteners that are clean and designed specifically
for the job. Use either their glue or the 3M-equivalent they recommend. I
understand some adhesives don't work well on their acoustic foam. Use a hand
circular saw to do your cutting -- don't even think about sabre saws or other
cutting tools.
The stuff isn't cheap, but I'm glad I
went with them. Most people will probably be able to do the job for about $250 -
$300 in materials - my cost was about twice that due to the fact that I was
heavily sound isolating a significant cavity below the PH sole open to all the
machinery & needed a lot more square feet than most applications will
require. Bottom line - the stuff works.
Good luck.
Bill September 2001
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Hi Bill - - - I replaced my OEM flexible-mounts with
the "R&D" mounts available from this site. http://www.pyiinc.com/
Engine vibration is now greatly reduced.
An excellent product.
Keith Okennon September 2001
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The engine
bearers are timber and attach to the boat with two bolts. These bolts go
sideways through the timber (not sure where they go yet – presume into the
stringers). Anyway one of these was broken. The mounts themselves were loose on
the bearers. I would never have known this without removing the engine.
I will no more about the mounts in a
week or so once I have prepared them for the new engine.
Bill Moloney Covenant III #34 September 2001
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John all
This is
the response I had from Lancing marine in the
Bill Moloney Covenant III #34
From: Lancing Marine [mailto:anyone@lancingmarine.com]
Sent:
Subject: Re: 4-108 Oil Cooler
Hi Bill,
The 4-108 is best not used with an oil
cooler, as in the raw water circuit, it cools the oil too much, and results in
sludge formation in the sump.
At one time, Perkins issued an instruction
for existing coolers to be removed.
If you are determined to fit one, and
have a "spin-on" oil filter, the cooler can be inserted between the
filter and its mount, and have hot jacket water routed through it to avoid
excess cooling.
If you have a bowl-type filter, then
I have spin-on conversions, but filter then hangs down. This can be used with
or without the cooler.
Mike October 2001
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Bill,
Perhaps
because mine is fresh water cooled and is also used to cool the auto
Transmission, it does not over-cool. One thing we have been pleased with is the
engine temp which remained at 185-190 in
Bryan Biesanz Tundra
Spirit October 2001
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I have a
T-47 that I just repowered. She had a Yanmar 55hp with 5500 hours. It was not
in good condition, and a complete re-build was in order. I decided to replace
it with a 100 hp Yanmar. My rational was as follows. I am preparing for an
open-ended cruise, and so a new engine I hope will offer me more reliability,
at least for the initial part of the cruise. The 55 was underpowered for the
boat. The cost differential was about 2 times more expensive in the end, but
when I thought about the overall cost amortized over the life of my cruise, it
seemed like the better choice.
There were
a couple of unanticipated problems. The 55 had a duel belt pulley that ran a
125 amp alternator and the compressor for the refrigeration. The new 100 could
not accommodate a 2-belt pulley. The new engine came with a 55-amp alternator,
not sufficient capacity for my needs. So I had to replace it. The largest
single belt alternator was a 100 amp Balmar. I had to buy a new bracket for the
refrigeration compressor, and am not especially pleased with the long belt I
need to use in order to use it. The new engine is equipped with an intercooler.
In order to access the starter motor or the raw water impeller, the intercooler
has to be removed. I'm not particularly pleased with this additional work
either.
As is often the case with upgrading,
with all that new horsepower, I decided to upgrade my
prop. I went from an 18 in. fixed 3 blade, to a 21" feathering
Max-Prop. In order to install it, I
needed a custom made end nut and had to shave about a 1/16th of an inch off the
end of my shaft (of course, you don't realize this when your ordering, only
when your installing).
Notwithstanding the certain degree of
frustration, I am pleased with my decision. The boat really moves along much
better with the extra power. The Max-Prop is amazing. I am getting almost an
extra knot of speed sailing. And while I am still getting use to backing down
with it, there is almost no prop wash. The boat actually backs straight. I
still have a tendency to approach a dock at a more severe angle than is now
necessary. After years of mastering swinging my port side to the dock in
reverse, I now don't have that action. Good luck with your decision.
Phillip Yaffa S/V
Peregrina October 2001
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Have the
mechanic return and do a dynamic pressure test: ...... remove the injectors,
exhaust manifold, air cleaner, and oil fill cap, open the throttle wide and
make sure each piston is at dead bottom (during test), then install a high
pressure air hose into the injector ports and sequentially bring the air
pressure up to the max. possible delivered to each
cylinder. With air pressure in each combustion chamber, simply listen to where
the air is escaping.... if manifold = exhaust valves, If air intake = intake
valves, if out through the oil fill pipe = piston rings, etc. .... for an old
engine simply listen for the location of the worst case air leak. If all your
cylinders were 260 I wouldn’t be overly concerned; but, since there is a major
difference between #2 & #3, I personally would do more testing.
When was the last (first?) time you
did either a "crankcase soak" with automatic trans
fluid or Marvel Mystery Oil???? Many times engines (diesel or gasoline) will
show poor compression because of crudded-up/sticky
piston rings due to excess carbon build up in the piston ring groove surfaces
and or sticky exhaust valve guides. On 'elderly' engines, I simply change the
crankcase oil, replace with 100% Marvel Mystery Oil (contains enough earth
ravaging solvents, etc. to give the EPA a heart attack), remove the injectors
put a few tablespoonfuls of MMO down the hole, spin the engine for a few
minutes with the starter, rest, spin, rest, spin, rest, spin, rest for one
week, remove 1/2 of the Marvel, top off with regular Oil, reinstall the
injectors and restart and run with ****no load**** until warm, let sit for a
couple of days, drain old oil mixture and replace with new. Run the engine a
few hard hours ....... then do the compression test AND the air pressure test !!!!!
On gasoline engines I do this every
50K miles... and regularly get 200K+ miles (+ some minor valve work). (I also
keep 25% Marvel and 75% oil in the crankcase).
You might want to discuss this with your mechanic if you feel
uncomfortable doing it yourself (if he has a lot of gray hair he will know
exactly what you're talking about).
BTW - The Marvel Soak will also
sometimes free a 'frozen' engine that has aspirated cooling water retrograde
(backwards) through a faulty exhaust system, etc. Hope this helps.
Rich Hampel October 2001
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I own a
1983 37 with a Yanmar 3QM. The engine has no hour meter but is estimated to
have 4000+ hours. I recently had a mechanic do a compression check and the
results left a little to be desired. When the engine left the factory it was
420 in each cylinder. The best it could muster in the recent check was 260,
260, 320. Now before you tell me to repower I need to
say the engine leaks no fluid, starts right up on a warm day, and burns no oil.
The injectors are in good shape as well, or so says the mechanic. My question
is this, do you think a valve job will significantly improve the old girls
compression.
Jim Grant S/V Adventure Bound
#370 October 2001
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I talked with our Diesel mechanic at
work today and asked him what caused blue smoke!
Answer burning oil.
He offered a couple of thoughts.
Did you have the bore honed? He said that the bore can become tapered!
Are the ring joints staggered? Might be caused by a broken ring!
Until carbon builds up behind the new rings oil will
be burned! Run the dickens out of the engine to bed the rings!
Were the valve guides replaced or just the seals?
The oil can get past the seals if the wear on the guides is excessive.
I think he said white smoke is not enough fuel and black smoke is too much
fuel.
This guy is a master at his trade so
I assume he knows what he is talking about, he served his apprentice in
Ed October 2001
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Just for my two cents worth.
The issue
you have to decide on isn't whether you can avoid adding to society's wasteful
behavior by dumping a repairable engine. It is the personally critical issue
about the importance of having a reliable engine that you can count on when
trouble rears its ugly head. If you feel that you will be uncomfortable with an
uncertain repair job, then spending the extra $1,000 or $2,000 on a new engine
is cheaper than psychotherapy, and surely more effective. (Yep, I used to be a
Psychiatrist long before I went into research).
I really hate having an unreliable
engine. I can live without a reliable head, or stove or CD player. But the mast
and rigging, the hull, anchor and the engine get absolutely priority.
But make absolutely certain that you
get a truly complete estimate on the cost of the job before you agree to it.
Will it include new engine mounts, checking shaft, alternator of adequate size,
panel in the cockpit with all the proper gauges, modification of the stringers,
soundproofing, new fuel lines, new filter system for the fuel, water lift on
the exhaust, exhaust hose, intake filter. You should also triple check the through-hull
for the intake and possibly replace that as well. Get several references on the
people doing the job, and call the people they suggest - but also check with
people in the area. By the way, if you can get a new Yanmar of that size
completely installed for $8K, it seems like a very good price.
regards,
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Subject: Perkins blues
I'm not a
Perkins mech, but most times the rings have joints that have to be staggered
around the piston upon assembly..ie
joints don't stack above each other.
Short of this, the rings probably aren't seated yet. I would recommend running
at various speeds under load and make sure that the oil is the correct weight,
probably non-detergent for break in.
Mark October 2001
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For a
useful review of various sound insulation materials, check a review in
Practical Sailor about a year ago. The brand that received the very highest
rating is by Soundown. They are based in
regards,
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This is what
you're serial number on you Perkins engine means to the parts suppliers. I
received this after I received the incorrect part:
The engine serial number should begin with 2 letters - may be ED followed by 5
digits followed by a letter and further digits and then a letter.
The first 2 letters tell the engine family.
The five numbers tell us the engine build list.
The next letter gives the country of manufacture code.
The next set of numbers is the actual serial number of the engine.
The last letter is the year of manufacture.
From this we will be able to see how
engine left the factory and to what specification it was built. What we are
unable to do is to advise of any parts which may have been fitted after the
engine left the factory.
Andy Windy Blue June 2002
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Just a comment on zincs for the Perkins 4-108. I purchased an in-line
(seawater line) zinc from the local Perkins dealer here in Ft Lauderdale. It is a brass casing with two barbs either
side. The pencil zinc screws into the main casing. A small wire then connects to the engine. I mounted mine as close to the seawater pump
as possible. I am not sure yet how well
it works. If anyone is interested, I
will post a photo on the FTP site.
Phill July 2002
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I've got a
CT37 with a Perkins 4-108. There seems to be a
John Kalpus Prudence CT37
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Question: Anyone know where I can
obtain a shop manual for a Perkins 4-108?
Answer: If you are unsuccessful at
locating an original printed manual, a bound Xerox copy of the 1992 4-108
manual may be purchased from:
S & W Diesel, Inc.
(310) 835-3155
Ron Birdsall Tayana
37 #415 "SmoothSail" September 2002
Now online at ftp://tognews.com/Perkins_4_108_Workshop_Manual
.
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We got our shop manual (two years
ago) from Southwest Products Corp. I think it was the one in AZ. Go to www.southwestproducts.com
and the contact information is on the opening page. We also got a parts book
for our particular engine (need your engine serial number) but I don't remember
if we got it from them.
Good luck, Tim and Cindy Cullen Masquerade Union 36 November 2002
Parts manual also online at: ftp://tognews.com/Perkins_4-108_Parts_Manual
.
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A couple
of weeks ago, I hit the starter button
(Yanmar 3QM30F) and got a nice loud click for my efforts rather than the
familiar sound of the starter engaging.
Troubleshooting with various and
sundry meters has led me to believe that the solenoid is bad (it's drawing in
excess of 28 amps when I'm told the norm is 14 or 15). Apparently, the problem
is intermittent as the engine fuse (30 amp) only blows
sometimes.
I've looked into procuring a new
solenoid but my usual Yanmar supplier says the solenoid and starter come as
one...a $1300+ part. That doesn't seem right.
Two Questions:
1. Anyone
have a source for just a solenoid?
2. One of my mechanic pals says I should
be using a 30 AMP, SLO-BLO fuse for the engine. Anyone have an opinion? Thanks in advance...
Tad McDonald November 2002
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Before you
spend part of your life savings on a new solenoid.... first with a digital volt
meter in series with the control panel starter button and the solenoid primary
lead disconnected, press the button and see what voltage you get. If much less
than 12v, you need a new starter pushbutton SWITCH or need to clean the
corrosion from ALL the terminals/connectors between the control panel and the
starter solenoid. Its simply amazing that the Yanmar control panel is wired
together with automotive (non-tinned) wiring instead of marine grade wire !!!??!! On the
stern portside of the engine (bolted on just below the cylinder head) you will
find a mounted fuse inside of a plastic cover/box (automotive 20-30A U type)
that is subject to corrosion (hence low voltage downstream)- this fuse is for
the solenoid primary (and you guessed it - more non-marine grade connectors).
Yanmar solenoids are pretty bombproof, check the upstream wiring first for
voltage drops / high resistance, etc. Remember, if low voltage (due to
resistance due to corrosion, etc.) you will get a high amperage draw.
I betcha
the farm that either the fuse or the pushbutton (or wiring) have gone over to
the 'dark-side'.
How to test with a screwdriver:
**Fully charge the battery**, transmission in neutral, ... take an old
screwdriver (test may severely burn the blade of the screwdriver) and place the
blade ON the heavy
battery cable connection.... slowly bring the shank of the screwdriver in
contact with the primary connection (the black wire that runs back to the fuse)
thus shorting the heavy battery connection directly to the primary wire of the solenoid .... You have just entirely bypassed all the
starter panel, fuses, wiring, etc. If the starter engages and turns over
without hesitation ...... you have a problem in the primary circuit, and its probably corrosion. BTW.... remember which
is the primary wire that you short to... as a screwdriver can be used to start
most 'Delco' type starters in an emergency. (I keep an
old burned up screwdriver in
the engine compartment just for this purpose.)
If you find that all the upstream (of
the solenoid) voltages are reasonable, check the solenoid for electrical
continuity of the windings, with the voltmeter. Then if there is an open short
of high
resistance in the windings, THEN consider to replace.
On some solenoid models you can remove the Bakelite insulation (requires
resoldering, disassemble the contacts and rotate them 180 degrees so they make
a better/more solid connection.... you'll see what I'm talkiing about if or
when you open the Bakelite insulation - the contacts are square and the poppit/plunger is round, etc.
Slow blow fuse... probably not
needed. :-)
Rich Hampel November 2002
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I would
like to have the fuel pump come on when the oil pressure comes up and turn off
when the pressure drops. This would prevent the pump from running after the
engine has shut off.. I think I can use whatever it is
that shuts off the alarm and the light.
Has anyone done this before or have a
different way to do this? Traveler has a Yanmar 3JH2E engine.
Coleman Blake Traveler
T-37 #328 January
2003
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What you describe
is common to virtually ALL modern automobiles: place a tee in the oil pressure
line where the oil pressure sensing switch is located, get an oil pressure
safety switch (Delco - auto parts store stuff), put the switch in series with
the fuel pump. If you require marine
grade/sealed you can get such a unit from www.indigoelectronics.com
or www.moyermarine.com
.... standard retrofit for Atomic-4 marine engines.
For the above you will need to wire
in a bypass switch/circuit so as to energize the fuel pump when the oil
pressure is low/zero so that you can start the engine, especially if your
engine has been not running for a few days and the fuel pressure is no longer
present in the rails. The (3-pole)
bypass switch also becomes a pretty damn foolproof anti-theft device. I use a
bi-color LED to monitor the switch position:
Rich Hampel January
2003
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Subject: Pre-luber? Any experience?
The
Defender catalog is one of my favorite things to browse when I need something
to read for a few minutes...Yesterday I noticed a thing called the
"pre-luber" and it seems like a good idea. The Pre-luber is a pump
that fits between the oil sump drain and the oil pressure sender. You switch it
on for half a minute or so to pressurize your oil system before starting the
engine. The idea is that this prevents a large percentage of engine wear which
occurs when you first start it. I know
that the little engine on my Norsea sounded like someone shaking a bucket of
bolts when I first started it. In a few seconds it would quiet down. I guess
this was due to the oil getting distributed around the engine.
An
additional use of the pre-luber is changing the oil. They sell an optional
quick disconnect fitting that allows you to pump the oil out of the engine at
oil change time. There is another pump called "Reverso" that can be
used for that application. There is a good photo article on this on the boat us
web site. The Reverso option also lets you pump the new oil directly into the
engine sump. Does anyone have any
experience with this device or a similar system for pre lubricating the engine?
Thanks, John Lewis January
2003
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John:
A friend of mine has one on his Westerbeke 80-HP and
highly recommends it. I think it would be a great thing to add. The pre lubber
is probably the best thing you could do for your new engine. Especially
if you need to run it everyday for hot water and electricity.
Ray Slaninka January
2003
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Sounds
like a good idea. I had heard an alternate method to pre-lube the engine, but
have not tried it. Perhaps someone can indicate if it really makes sense: Turn
the starter for a few seconds, but with the kill switch activated so that the
engine doesn't actually start up. This supposedly pumps the oil and starts the
lube process of the engine. Then wait a few seconds, turn off the kill switch,
and now start up the engine.
Probably
not as good as the pre-luber, but it doesn't cost $400.
regards,
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This does not
sound like a good idea. You get the same amount of dry running as if you had
started it. The idea of the pre-luber is to coat all the surfaces before the
parts move. Instead of just one dry start you have to have two.
According
to the pre-luber web site it does not take long for the oil to drain out.
Probably happens pretty quickly if the oil is warm.
John Lewis January
2003
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A pre-oiler is only of limited benefit as it supplies oil
principally to the journal bearing galleries and valve rockers. A pre-oiler
unfortunately doesn’t lubricate the cylinder walls (oil control and
compression rings) where cold start wear is the most aggressive (cylinder walls). If you really want to
prevent adverse wear, use an engine block heater, etc. (and a 14 mile long
extension cord) so that all the clearances are thermally correct at start-up.
I used to use hand pump pre-oilers on
racing engines in the vain attempt to prolong lifetime between rebuilds....
didn’t happen. On most engines you develop full oil pressure within a few
rotations during starting (unless your journal bearings are badly worn).
Rich Hampel January
2003
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I was
replacing my raw water pump impeller last weekend for the first time since I
bought the boat last year an observed something interesting I thought I'd raise
to the list. My boat has a Perkins 4-108 and when I removed the pump cover
plate I noticed the interior is not symmetrical. At the base of the chamber was
what appears to be a brass insert that has 2 small holes on each side of the
crescent shaped insert. The holes line
up roughly with the pump intake and outlet pipes. The net effect is the
impeller becomes substantially compressed as it goes over the crescent shaped
insert. It seems to be within the impeller’s tolerance to be compressed but the
whole arrangement looks suspiciously custom engineered.
Has anyone else observed this sort of insert and any guesses on the benefit?
Increased pressure/velocity? Highly
compressed and perplexed.
j.ware T-37 Tortuga #175 May 2003
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That is
perfectly normal. In fact, that is how it is designed to compress the vanes and
create "suction" (pressure difference anyway). Otherwise, you'd just
have a spinning "wheel" in there.
By the way, before it comes up...it
makes no difference how the vanes are compressed when inserting the new
impeller. Once the engine/pump starts, the vanes will be properly
"aligned" by themselves.
Hint: precompress
the vanes with a cable tie about 1/3 from the inside end (the end you are going
to insert) and then put some dishwashing soap on the impeller to facilitate
loading. Once you get the initial part in, cut the tie off and push the
impeller in to seat properly (they are usually keyed so watch
your alignment).
Tad McDonald May 2003
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Subject: Fuel Pumps
I was thinking of adding an electric
fuel pump to my Yanmar fuel system down the road. I found the below article on the
IP list. Interesting read and seems like some good info, so I thought I would
pass it on....
John Hovan May 2003
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The reason
that recent model autos and trucks have the electric fuel pump running
constantly is that they do not have mechanical fuel pumps anymore. Yes, some
have fuel injector pumps, but their electrical fuel pump is the only thing that
brings fuel from the tank to the carb or injector pump.
On our
Yanmar engines, there is a mechanical (diaphragm) fuel pump which brings fuel
from the tank to the injector pump. The electrical pumps on our boats are
strictly redundant and not needed except to bleed the system after a filter
change or running out of fuel. Not only is the electrical pump not needed for
normal operation, running it may be problematic. The engine-mounted mechanical
fuel pump has an opening from the pump diaphragm to the crankcase. If that
diaphragm fails, fuel under pressure from the electric pump can flow into the
crankcase, filling the crankcase with diesel fuel and causing an engine
runaway. If the mechanical diaphragm fails, it is much better for the engine to
stop due to lack of fuel at the injector pump than to have a runaway. Also, if
you only run the electric pump when needed to bleed the system, it will last a
very long time. If you want to use your electric fuel pump like autos and
trucks, you should route your fuel lines to bypass the mechanical pump. In fact
you could do this if the mechanical pump failed in order to run the engine
after a mechanical pump failure.
Art Richard
posted by: John Hovan June 2003
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OK....
I get the drift, I think,....
but please explain how you get engine run away from fuel in the crank case. How
does that wind up in the combustion chamber? On my truck I could see it if my
turbo blew a seal and engine oil leaked into the air intake, but I must not
understand something very basic if the fuel can get into the cylinder from the
crank case and cause a runaway. If the engine oil on my truck winds up in my
cylinders (as in the case of my turbo seal on the truck engine) I do have a
runaway. Crank case oil or diesel in the crankcase should not cause runaway.
Granted it may not be too good for bearing lubrication but I fail to see the
runaway connection.
Please explain!
Jeff Leech June 2003
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A couple
of weeks ago I was motoring at about 1800 RPM (my normal cruise setting) and my
Yanmar 3QM30F started losing RPM. In the past when this has happened it has
been due to a clogged primary fuel filter (Racor 10 micron). I changed this filter but the problem
continued. I then changed the engine-mounted filter. I tried to bleed the
engine-mounted filter with the lever on the fuel pump but it didn't seem to be
working properly so I installed an new fuel pump as
well. I am still having the same problem. It runs great at 1500 RPM but when I
try for 1600 or more it looses power. I have tried bleeding the system but it
is pretty hard to do with the fuel pump lever.
Can anyone comment on what they think
the problem might be? Also, I have read many comments on auxiliary fuel pumps,
multiple pre filters, etc. Any suggestions in that area would be great as well.
Thanks, Alan
Alan Jett July 2003
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Subject: engine problems
What is the condition of your exhaust
elbow?????
The
typical Yanmar elbow is prone to carbonate formation just after the area of the
water injection port. Many times these elbows are sooooo
full of 'salts' that the exhaust gases are severely restricted at higher rpm.
With such back pressure you will have difficulty in attaining high rpm.
What is
the surface temperature of your packing gland when running???? A gland that is
too tight will extract quite a few horsepower from the engine. What is the condition of the prop? A huge
ball of barnacles on the prop will also retard the output rpm.
Most Yanmars are very easy to bleed
and typically you don’t have to bleed anything past the high pressure pump -
all you have to do bleed the low pressure side, up TO the injection pump .... once primed, the
injection pump will push the air all the way through to the injectors. However,
if your fuel system has 'compression' fittings instead of flared fittings, --
compression fittings are prone to vacuum leakage and will draw in a
considerable amount of air if not very tight (they can loosen due to vibration) ..... when you bleed the lift
pump do you get relief bubbles during EACH bleed?
Rich Hampel June 2003
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Rich,
The exhaust elbow was replaced in
2000-Fall and should be in good shape. Packing
gland is very cool - I am using the GFO product. Prop is very clean - I am in
fresh water. I think you may be right about getting air on the low-pressure
side. If I shut the engine down, open the bleeding screw on top of the fuel
filter and operate the priming lever on the fuel pump, it takes a while for the
fuel to begin coming out which indicates air in the filter housing. I currently
have no way to prime from the primary filter but I may try to disconnect the
vent hose and apply a little pressure there. I will tighten all of the
connections in the fuel lines as well. I am thinking about installing 2 of the
500 FG filters in line (expensive). I know my fuel is cruddy and there are no
companies here to clean it. If I can get the tanks close to empty I will try to
tackle the job myself. Thanks!
Alan Jett June 2003
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That you
are getting air constantly during bleeding indicates an obvious leak. Clogged filters
will 'discover' any leaks as the lift pump will be developing lots of vacuum
when stalled against a clogged filter set. Did you lubricate the filter housing
gaskets with fuel to endure a good seal? Do your RACOR’s have a drain valve and
clear plastic bottom sump - they leak if not properly tightened (not
overtightened). It’s easy to deform the thin flat gaskets on RACOR’s when
reinstalling. If you opt for new Racor housings/heads spend the few extra $ for
the style with the integral purge pumps - a small rod operated piston pump that
is used to bleed the filter. Buy the LARGEST filter that will fit. The best way
to monitor RACOR’s, etc. is to add a vacuum gage between filter sets. If you’re
drawing a high vacuum, it indicates to change the filter. RACOR sells the
vacuum gauges.
An electric automotive fuel pump
installed between the first filter and the tank will greatly aid in bleeding.
Turn on the pump and sequentially bleed the whole system while the pump is
running. The pump's valves will permit flow when the pump is in standby. Can be used as a 'standby' pump if the lift pump fails.
Tank cleaning:(especially if the
filters/;tank are fouled with bacterial slime), add
BioBor or other biocide and let it sit to kill the bacteria., Discard (or
recirculate/polish later) the fouled oil, Get a long handled stiff bristle
brush, open the top, get inside and knock off all those 'rust flowers' if the
tank is iron, You'll use a ton of paper
towels in removing all the crud. (a tank cleaning
polishing service will use a high pressure power washer or steam) A bacterial
scum/slime looks like black mayonnaise. If you can rent a 120v 2-3 gpm diesel fuel transfer pump, go to Home Depot or Lowes
and buy a cheap
polypropylene filter housing for 2.5" dia X
10" long filters, then go to a gasket distributor and change the
gaskets/O-rings to EPDM (EthylenePropyleneDiamineMonomer) Search for
polypropylene "swimming pool" filters made from polypropylene or -
either spun bonded depth media or pleated at 15µM or 10µM 'rating'.... Wash the
tank sides with fuel to deposit most of the particles to the bottom. With the transfer pump, use a dip tube and suck from the very
bottom of the tank ... into the pump (should have an integral screen for pump
protection) into the filter and back to the tank. Add 10-15+ gallons of
fuel and run the system for many hours until the fuel becomes crystal clear.
You'll probably consume two or three filters, change
ONLY when the flow rate degrades. Stop and clean the pump screen often, so the
pump doesn’t stall and burn out the motor. Many tool rental shops in maritime
areas rent self-contained fuel polishing skids .... buy the filters elsewhere if you can to save the huge
'markup' of the rental shop.
What’s happened is that water has
probably collected at the bottom of the tank. The bacteria thrive at the
interface between the water and the oil. Water vapor gets in the vent line and
condenses on the tank walls, especially in winter. Its
a good practice to seal the tank vent when the boat is not in use for long
periods of time, or keep the tank filled to keep the walls covered with oil.
A Yanmar is VERY cranky when there is
bacterial slime in the oil.... instantly clogs the filters, etc.. A very common problem. Add
BioBor, etc. when adding fuel to retard the bacteria (consider to add a Cetane
booster to compensate for the modern 'de-rated' fuels). Fuel oil polymerizes over long term storage.
If you're not using much fuel, keep the tankage level low; don’t store a lot of
fuel that you arent going to use right away. Seek out
only high turnover pumping stations. Don’t buy from mom & pop operations
that don’t pump a LOT of fuel (goes for gasoline too) so that you are putting
in only FRESH fuel. The shelf-life of fuels is fairly short, buy only 'fresh'
fuel.
I’ve posted an onboard polishing
system on the Tayana ftp site. I run this recirculation system anytime the
weather is rough or the engine is on. You have to have a clean tank to start
with before you add an onboard recirc. system. Since
adding this recirc system 3 years ago, I have essentially NO particulate load
going to my RACOR’s.
Rich Hampel June 2003
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Problem solved...
I removed the vent hose from the fuel
tank and attached another hose long enough to reach the engine. I blew into the
hose and observed fuel leaking out from around the gasket between the two
halves of the fuel pump. The screws were a little loose so I tightened them. I
also inspected the short piece of rubber fuel hose between the copper fuel
supply line and the fitting on the fuel pump. It looked to be slightly clogged
so I replaced it. I then bled the entire system, started the engine and after
all seemed OK I took her out for a spin. No problems at all even at high RPM’s.
Thanks for all of the helpful advice.
Alan Jett June 2003
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Seems to
be a nice product..... especially the stabilizer; a
Biocide would be a plus. The difficulty is if you have a 'sludged' tank you can
possibly 'sluff-off' .large amounts of bioburden that will overwhelm the
filters. Would probably be OK in a tank that wasn’t totally
fouled with bacteria, etc. I’ve run similar stabilizer products in
gasoline engines .... with
quite remarkable boost in combustion efficiency as a side benefit!!!!
While we're on the subject of engine
additives, my crankcase mixture is 75% Rotella and 25% Marvel Mystery Oil. The
MMO keeps the carbon from fouling the piston ring grooves and the valve stems
from sticking - hence better compression etc. MMO is an old time 'snake-oil'
additive that seems to work - I use the same mix in my autos
.... and I add it to the fuel on older gasoline
engines to 'top oil' the valves and upper cylinder areas. The MMO can be used
as a 'spa' treatment - totally fill the crankcase, run with NO load until warm,
let sit a few days, drain. Works great on older engines that
are starting to lose compression. Some diesel mechanics I know use
transmission oil to the same effect.
Anything that raises the Cetane
number will be of benefit, especially in engines that were designed before the
mandated lowering of Cetane % and less sulfur content. ..... same
thing for gasoline engines - an octane booster is always a benefit in older
engines.
Racor Filters: 215R2 housing/head with see-through sump/bowl
and integral primer pump. To these heads I apply 10µM and 2µM spin-on elements
...... but I have a recirculating polishing system and therefore do not
challenge the RACOR’s with debris. The recirc. system was added after installation of the RACOR’s.
Rich Hampel July 2003
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To prevent/retard Morse cables from rusting:
When
replacing with new cables, remove the inner cable, squirt in a 'rust reformer'
containing phosphoric acid, soak the removed inner cable
with rust reformer. Rust reformer will 'blue' the metal by forming a rust
retarding ferrous oxide layer. Take the outer cable and with a grease gun push
in waterproof grease until it comes out the opposite end. Replace the central
'wire'.. Either remount to a 'protected' location or
place a splash shield (removable Plexiglas, Sunbrella, etc) over the exposed
end --- but let the cover 'breathe' and not so tight as to form condensation.
The internal grease will last for many years until it hardens.
If someone would make such Morse type cable
system with a 'zerk' fitting attached, I'd be a very happy boy. Hope this helps.
Rich Hampel August
2003
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Subject: Perkins 4.108 starter rebuild/replacement
Seems the trusty ole solenoid on the
starter on Prudence's Perkins 4.108 has stuck/frozen or broken altogether.
Symptoms: pushing the start button causes the solenoid to "click,"
then the starter motor whirs nicely but does NOT engage the engine. I turned
the Perkins over several revs by hand to isolate a possible bad spot on the
flywheel to no avail. So, I've probably got a bad solenoid.
Unfortunately I can't just remove the
solenoid but must remove the starter/solenoid as a whole unit. Any ideas of a good place to secure a rebuild job, and/or a
replacement for a spare? I'm in the
Harvey, you out
there?? (-;
I'm also curious as to other
experiences with the starter on the 4.108.
I've got a Perkins rebuilt in 1998. Perhaps they simply installed the
old starter on the new rebuilt. I wouldn't be surprised. Ideas?
Suggestions? Fair winds to you all...
John Kalpus Prudence September 2003
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John,
Getting the #$%^&* off is the
hardest thing. Once it is off, take a look at it yourself before sending it off
for a rebuild.
I had a similar problem in
While it's apart inspect the bearings
and brushes, clean the case, take some ultra-fine sandpaper to the commutator,
and clean up the connections to the motor itself. As long as the brushes have
plenty of meat left the rest of the starter is probably fine. In my case it
took me less than an hour and I was figuring it out as I went along.
HTH, Charlie s/v Kamaloha T37 #542 September 2003
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Hey Jim, Harvey, John, et al...
You won't
believe this, BUT, the ole starter came right out! (-; Actually, the trick was
using my new 24 inch socket extension. That enabled me to bring the ratchet
wrench to the front of the engine where I wasn't as likely to break my
knuckles. I sprayed a liberal coating on the 3 bolts and let it sit for a good
hour. Then I simply cranked on the ratchet wrench and out came the bolts.
I did have to "tap" on the
starter with a mallet to free it up from the housing. No worries,
mate. I'll take it to a rebuild shop in
John Kalpus Prudence September 2003
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Rich,
I
purposely do not run the engine over 3000, for the reasons you state. During
the sea trial in summer of 2002, we were able to get it up to 3350, but with
much smoking and stern squatting. So, I don't think it is 22% overpitched,
probably closer to 10-15%.
If you feel 10-15% then simply reduce
by 15%.
I also have never been an advocate or
retorquing cylinder heads periodically. I would not advise anyone to do this as
a maintenance practice. There is too much margin for error in retorquing, and I
don't want to run the risk of unevenly loading the studs, or cracking head
gaskets. I'll strongly disagree on that
one! I used to re-torque the head on my Offenhauser every time I took it out
for a trial or race. I re-torqued my studded (also shaved head) Atomic 4 every
25hrs. As if I didn’t, it would blow a head gasket. If the threads are clean (cleaned)
and oiled and the torque wrench is accurate (better to use a moment arm gauge
than a spring/snap release) you will get the SAME torque every time .... its just a matter of
stress/strain and using a known/calibrated wrench. There is also a technique to
be followed .... 70% then move through the torque
sequence pattern by +15% then another +15% to at the final number. If you
torque to the final number in one single step, you’ll risk warping the head
(you have to wait for the gasket to relieve the strain). If you lug and engine
and the cylinders develop excess pressure you better hope that the head is
properly torqued .... or you
blow the head gasket .... and no engine likes cooling
water dripping into the combustion chamber - its hard on the rings!
I know all boats are different. I feel like
the fineness of the pitch adjustment on the older model MaxProp might be an
issue, with the setting I have in on now being too much pitch, but the next
available one down being too little. I was more wondering whether anybody else
has had this dilemma.
If the pitch index numbers/increments
on your max-prop are too 'wide' and thus bracket the rpm that you desire, then
consider a reduction of **blade
diameter** (then rebalance - just get the blades back to the same/equal weight
once you remove diameter). Its vastly better to be
slightly underpitched than over pitched as when you need max power though heavy
chop/waves, the boat will be going slower and you can use up all that reserve
HP. If over-pitched, you'll still lug the engine - risk of bending something
and promotes extreme cylinder, etc. wear. Thanks for the info.
Frank Timmons V42 Magic Dragon
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Subject:
Welded Parts
I second
the heat approach, but in addition I would soak the "joint" in
cutting oil overnight first. I don't know if it really makes a difference but I
like to use all the weapons at my disposal. Assuming the parts are mobile, I've
also been known to put really recalcitrant parts in the freezer overnight
before heating them, just to make the heat differential that much greater (A
propane torch is all I have). Heat the larger part which surrounds the smaller
part and try to keep a heat sink like a vise on the smaller part. The point is
to create a heat differential between the two in order to break the corrosion
bond. As Frank said, a few cycles of this and lots of patience usually takes
care of it. When reassembling the parts afterwards use a long-lived corrosion
inhibitor like Lanocote so it won't happen again.
Charlie s/v
Kamloha February 2004
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Today I
tried to start the engine with the air filter off, but no heat (to see if lack
of air/dirty air filter, as suggested by
the results. It is scheduled for March 18.
Imants T37PH February 2004
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Well, the
engine preheater is now installed on my Perkins 4-108. It is a standard Perkins
part that fits below the air filter dome. It consists of a cigarette lighter
type coil and a copper tube from after the fuel pump. Current is applied to the
coil via a push button switch, the coil heats up and lights the diesel. Kind of
like a kerosene lamp... You do this for 10 to 15 sec and star the engine. It
now starts a lot quicker, but not quite as quick as when I used a heat gun.
Total cost was about $125 for parts and $200 for labor, including running wires
from preheater to switch on dashboard.
Imants TY37PH "Laiva" March
2004
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Subject: Clunk noise, metal
shavings, uh oh?
Ok, this
one's new to me. We own a T37 with Yanmar 3qm30 (1986) and have had absolutely
NO problems with it ....til now. We were out on lake
this weekend, anchored overnight and started engine first thing to get back to
marina. Wife heard noise below, I immediately pulled
engine cover and sounded like kind of a metallic "ting" noise.
Suspected alternator (have had this one before) and changed it out after
checking water pump. Restarted and it didn't get any better, revved it up to
about 1200 and noise was faster but not away. Went into locker to check trans, and it got louder and started getting progressively
louder - shut down and called for tow.
At dock,
went into locker and checked drive-saver, all intact. Hmmm. Noticed what
appears to be metal shavings on top of bell housing, near "vent" slots. We are currently in a transient slip, pending tow to
marina haul out. I suspect clutch disc came apart.
ANY input
would be greatly appreciated! Also, does the engine need to come out to put
clutch in, or can the shaft be pushed back, engine supported and trans removed? HELP,
this one's stranded us!
Mark s/v
Querencia, T37 May 2005
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Mark
I see you
haven't been answered yet so maybe this will help.
I once
blew my drive damper on my Perkins 4-108. Was cruising along and heard a bang
and had RPM jump way up. No unusually sounds after that but it was obvious that
the transmission was no longer connected to the engine. The drive damper is
attached to the flywheel inside the bell housing. It is not a clutch but takes
the place of one. The transmission shaft fits into it with its splined end.
There are lots of springs on the damper and they flex to take up the shock of
spinning up a transmission and shaft. There were no external indications of
damage or any unusual sounds but I sheared the rivets that held the damper to
the flywheel and it was freewheeling on the transmission shaft.
Don't know
if any of this applies to your Yanmar but it may help. Good luck getting the
problem identified and fixed.
Wayne V-42
C/C RESTLESS May 2005
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Subject: 4-108 starter problem
My starter has started acting up. It
momentarily (Very momentarily) starts to engage then hums. After several tries,
usually 3-7, it will finally engage and start the engine. I'm assuming it's
time to rebuild the starter. Is there anything special about a starter for a
Perkins 4-108, or could any rebuild shop do it? Any
suggestions for ease of removal/ replacement? I know
Tim Pruss S/V
Chardonnay Tayana Mariner 36 July 2005
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Hi Tim,
I switched
to a Delco starter. My local starter shop wouldn't touch a Lucas starter. He
said he could probably get a replacement Delco for around $250 but couldn't supply the adapter
plate required. And getting the proper adapter plate was one of the more
difficult jobs I've ever tackled - even buying it from TransAtlantic Diesel. I
finally had to use two adapter plates to make the new starter fit. The Delco
also requires the starter wiring to be modified. In general, switching starters
was a huge headache...
Could be that a little lubrication on
the starter shaft might help your problem. Sounds like the
starter pawl is not extending enough to always engage the flywheel.
Wayne V-42 C/C RESTLESS July 2005
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Hi Tim,
1) Check your battery and all the connections.
2) I don't know what you have in mind about
"any rebuild shop." Most of them are hackers who will nearly destroy
your starter in order to save a buck. They often swap out parts between
different half-dead units. Find a shop that is considered reliable by the local
high end mechanics. The only place I would trust here in
Depending upon the model of Perkins
you have, the starter may be in different locations on the engine. On ours, it
is on the port side low down under the exhaust manifold, and damned near
inaccessible. It is held in place with three bolts, as I recall. Get a good
socket wrench set with extender arms and even with a hinged head.
Disconnect
the batteries.
Double
check to make sure you disconnected the batteries.
Get some
adhesive tapes of different colors.
Get a good
light. Get a second headlamp so that you can point your head in the right
direction at critical moments.
Label the
various leads to the solenoid and any other connections on the starter with
different color tapes.
Are you
sure you disconnected the battery? If the hot (red) line is still active, and
you touch it to the engine block, you will have sparks jumping all over the
place.
If you
have a nice little digital camera, take a bunch of pictures of what it all
looks like - wires, bolts, orientation of starter.
Remove solenoid wires (labeled, of
course).
Remove Hot
Lead (red wire). (The engine block itself is often directly connected to the
black (return or "ground" lead). Tape over the
connector on the red lead so that it doesn't accidentally contact the engine
block and short.
Depending
upon the relative position of your starter, you may find it helpful to take a
board and lie it across the bilge. You may even want
to put a pan under the starter to be safe. This will help provide a place to
rest your hand, catch parts before they fall, etc.
Now
prepare to bloody your knuckles as you try to remove the three critical bolts.
Use your
socket/ratchet wrench with a long extender to reach the bolts.
The top
most bolt will probably also need a universal joint connector.
Just crack
each one slightly.
Then
gradually loosen them all.
The
starter is quite heavy, and clumsy to handle when it is almost out of your
reach, and threatens to drop into the bilge.
Once the
bolts are loose, it should be easy to remove.
Photograph
it and label the photo to indicate which wire attaches to which point.
Take it to
a good shop and have them test it.
This doesn't sound half as bad as it
actually can be. You have to wiggle under the engine, scrape your hands, shmoosh your nose against the floor boards, and will
discover curse words you didn't know that you had in your vocabulary.
The good news is that it actually
only takes about 10-15 minutes to remove or replace the starter. The big
problem is putting it back. It is heavy, and getting that first bolt in place
is a drag.
regards,
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If I can
add my $0.02 - although I have a Yanmar 4JH3E -
Charlie s/v
Kamaloha July 2005
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Yes, Yes. I agree completely Charlie.
Our recent problem was a bad switch that on a few rare occasions failed to kick
in the solenoid. But under that circumstance, we didn't even get a hum. We
initially considered that it might be a transmission safety lockout (as on your
automobile). Since we were out sailing at the time, I pointed out into the
ocean to gain time to play with the connections. I finally took a screwdriver
and jumpered across the leads to the solenoid.
Calder says that this is the most common source of problems. A bad
solenoid is likely to result in a repeated clicking sound, not total silence.
But your point about reading Calder is very well taken, especially his little
book on Diesel engines.
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